SPIRIT SAID TO KILL A MAN | Bell Witch: America’s Deadliest Haunting, with astrologist, Aliza Kelly

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Hello. Hello. We have such a special exciting episode for you all.

Oh my god. One of our favorite people is coming back to join us on Two Girls, One Ghost.

Two Girls, One Ghost. We are your ghostesses. That is Karin.

Hello.

I'm Sabrina. And in a very short couple of minutes, we will be joined by astrologer kind of witch. Yeah.

Uh Alisa Kelly,

who came on one year ago.

Last year. Yeah.

Yeah. One year ago. and gave us these incredible readings, which, you know, there were some personal parts of it. And we didn't fully announce to the world that her reading was basically completely spot on. [laughter] But every time something happened throughout the year, we'd be texting and you'd be like, "Well, of course this happened because it's May and Alisa said that this would happen in May."

Well, she literally It's so funny because there were some things that happened in my life and I would go back and like relisten to that episode

and exact dates were accurate.

Yeah. So, it is it's crazy. And Alisa is going to provide a reading for us which

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we'll include on our Patreon. But that's not why she's joining us here today.

No, we have such a special unique format of our episode. She is joining us to talk about and this was voted on by Patreon. We were like, "Let's talk about one of the most well-known

hauntings that we've talked about on the podcast before and have Alisa come do an analysis based on astrology of what the freak was happening right with the stars on important key dates of this case." Yeah. And try to make sense like was this destined to be no matter what were these hauntings the result of the way that the stars and planets aligned? And there was one case that got voted for and brought up a lot.

Yes. which you covered early days of the podcast.

Episode seven of our podcast, we covered the Bell Witch. Then we went like a year or two later, you and I went to Tennessee. We played a show in Nashville and then we drove the like hour, hour and a half outside to go to the Bell Witch Cave. We walked in the caves our very selves. We reference it at least

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every like 10 episodes, I feel. And so before Alisa joins us, we're going to give you a refresh of this case so that you're not like, "What the heck are they talking about?" Uh, you could also go back to relisten to episode 7. Krin, we gave you a gold star for the research that you did on that episode.

Actually, I was. And when I went back to listen, I was like, "Oh, wait. I did cover actually quite a bit."

So, woohoo! Pat on our backs. Woohoo! We're good.

It's also a smaller case. You know, I could cover it in the 10 minutes I had, but it's so fascinating.

It's so fascinating. So, we're going to tell you about the Bell Witch and the haunting that led up to the infamous legend of the Bell Witch.

Yeah. Very spooky.

the Bell Witch refresher

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So, the story starts in the rolling farmland of Adams, Tennessee, where there is a cave along the Red River that carries one of the most infamous paranormal cases in all of American history. It is known as the Bell Witch Cave, and the legend surrounding it is so chilling that even President Andrew Jackson is said to have paid this poltergeist a visit. And this is one of the only times in history where historians believe or maybe spiritual enthusiasts believe that a spirit was accused of actually murdering someone. So it all started back in 1804 when John Bell bought a bunch of property in Red River, Tennessee or what is now known as Red River, Tennessee. And he built a home on this land and moved his entire family, his wife, his kids to this property. and they

and they kept acquiring more land over the years. So, it didn't start out as this massive property. So, by the end,

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they ended up owning a lot more land.

They did. And then by 1817, the house that now stands on the property that you can go visit and see. They move in to this in 1817.

Do they still have all 300 acres? I can't remember from the time that we toured it.

They definitely have a lot of acreage. I just don't know how much.

Yeah, cuz remember we saw people kaying by as we were walking the trail out. It was so peaceful. And we're like, these kayakers probably have no idea that there's a witch in the cave above them.

Although, I feel bad calling her a witch cuz I have so many questions. I'm like, what what did the bells do? You know? Okay, so it all starts in 1817. They move into this cabin on the property and one day Jon is out in the cornfield when he sees a terrifying creature. This entity has the body of a dog, but the head of a rabbit. And immediately, it's frightening. I mean, of course, seeing that is going to frighten you. But Jon is like bad vibes, bad instinct. Like, he just trusts in his gut. He grabs his gun and he goes to shoot at the creature, but by the time he shoots, it

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has vanished. Which is also strange because it's a big field. If it ran off, he presumably would have seen it run off, but it vanished.

And I think he actually did shoot multiple times in the direction of this creature. It just clearly either didn't hit the thing.

Nope.

Or it's supernatural. It's supernatural.

So, almost instantly the paranormal activity starts. They start hearing scratches in the walls and at first they're like, "Oh, it's just mice. It's fine,

right? Just typical." I mean, they're they live on farmland,

right?

300 acres of farmland, of course. But then it grows louder and louder every night. Chains start dragging across the floors at night. There are faint whispering voices. The activity is very clearly ramping up. And at first, they think it's someone outside of the house doing this, like taunting them. But then very quickly they realized, "Oh, this is a haunting." [laughter] And this unseen entity would very soon become the family's worst nightmare. It grew stronger. It would pull bed covers from the Bell family children's beds. It would slap them. It would pinch them. It

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kicked a lot of ass. Like literally kick people in the ass.

Pulled family members to the ground. Sent rats to chew at bed post.

That's the detail I hate the most.

Cuz you would hate to experience that.

Yeah.

I would hate my sheep because then you're also trapped on your bed. Cuz do you dare step your feet down on the floor to make a to to run? Because there are mice that are chewing what?

But they they already have something to chew from chewing your toes.

That's why you run run. And so this is where we start to form an opinion on why the entity is attacking the family. It starts to specifically target John Bell. Like it almost has a hatred towards John. But then poor Betsy or Elizabeth who they called Betsy Belle the daughter is being tormented. It seems like a lot of activity is happening to her.

Right. So it was mostly directed at John but it did trickle. Trickle is not even the right word.

Right.

It was just basically the two of them were being viciously attacked.

Yes. And Betsy was enduring hair pulling

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beatings that truly left visible handprints. And then simultaneously, Jon's health starts to steadily decline.

Mhm. And what's interesting about this haunting case is they're clearly experiencing some poltergeist activity, some things that we have seen time and time again when we cover demonic cases and possession cases that you know this is kind of like following the same rhythm of those cases. However, in this case, this entity is communicating and communicating very clearly, which is not what we normally got. So, not only do you get knocks and scratches and shadows and stuff like that, there are full-blown conversations that this entity is having with the Bell family. At one point, there is a couple, a family friend who come to stay at the Bells. They spend the night and they wake up similar to what the family had experienced with the sheets being ripped violently off of the bed. And the man, whose name I didn't write down, but it is in episode 7 if you want [laughter] if you want to relisten and figure out who he is. He stood up and he was like,

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"That's enough. Like, in the name of the Lord, you need to declare yourself." He was basically just like,

"Stop being a coward. Like, tell me who you are. Expose yourself, spirit." Which the spirit did not. But that very next morning is when the activity really, really started to ramp up beyond what was already happening.

Yeah.

This spirit started singing loudly, singing hymns specifically, started speaking intelligently. It expressed its intent to kill John Bell. It quoted the Bible and it repeated two sermons word for word that happened at the exact same time on the exact same day, 13 m apart, which is wild. That's the part that freaks me out the most. Listen, I think I said this in our original version of it, but like that freaks me out because it's like one, it's taking religion to taunt and threaten the family. But two, it's also being like not only can I just recite things, but like I can actively go into the house of worship, two houses of worship. I can be listening to all of these things and it will not affect me.

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Which is what makes it feel demonic in a way because of a lot of the possession and you know demonic cases we have covered.

This feels like a similar tactic.

Yeah, it does. But but so yeah, we're saying like is it a demon? Cuz it feels like that. But this is the part of the story and the part of this haunting that the Bells experienced where we get a name. So the entity called itself Kate,

claiming to be the spirit of a woman, Kate Bats, who was a neighbor who had passed away and allegedly she had some sort of like land dispute deal that she felt really cheated on by John Bell. So we don't know if he screwed her out of something or if there was a misunderstanding. There's also a lot of legends that Kate Bats was actually like a cousin related to Lucy Bell, John's wife, and there's like some familial stuff, but then there's also, this reminds me of Beth Sheba when we talk about the Conjuring House where

a lot of the information about Kate Bats kind of came from a guy named John Ingram who wrote the story and published a book on it many years later

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who was a descendant of the Bells,

right? So, it's kind of like are they because Kate Bats was known to be like an eccentric woman. So, are they just trying to put blame on this woman

who was just eccentric and doing her own thing on her land,

right? Or maybe not at all. Like maybe she was didn't even talk to them, you know, like we have no clue what was going on. She was just either a scapegoat or maybe there really was something,

right? Either way, there is something.

There's something. Yeah. So, whether the origin of Kate is true or not, or this was something else, just trying to identify as Kate,

who knows? But the bell witch was relentless. It was cursing Jon. It was vowing to kill him. And word started to travel. Gossip started and the hauntings persisted and everyone in town knew what the bells were enduring.

Yeah.

And it kept happening. People would come over. They would experience stuff. People became believers. And two full years later, the hauntings are still happening.

Yeah.

And this is when future President Andrew Jackson, he was then a general, not a president. And I think the two sons, the

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Bell sons, had served under him in the military and had shared stories of their haunted house, which got his attention.

Yeah. And he was living in Nashville at the time, too, so he wasn't that far away. I mean, he basically did I know he did it on horseback, but we did it.

We did it on a wheel back,

a rental car or Marissa's car, and it's not far. So, basically, he decided from Nashville to come with a crew, come with a posi and travel to the Bell family farm. He was like, "Ghosts, sign me up.

I got to see this.

He's one of us."

When they first approach the property of the Bell family, they do have an encounter with Kate and she

she tries to stop them, but they have some reasoning and back and forth and they basically explain what they're trying to do and she's like, "Okay, fine. You can pass." So, they're like, "Oh my god, we were permitted to pass. We already had an encounter with this spirit. Holy crap, we saw a ghost, but she seems pretty chill and she seems to like us." So, they think everything is fine. But weren't his horses like not liking it? The horses were rejecting

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going up the

Well, I think that that was It wasn't known if it was like the horses reacting or if it was Kate stopping the horses from moving forward cuz it seems like they were completely frozen and stuck in mud and they couldn't go forward. And that's when her voice came out and was like, "What are you doing?"

And then

I don't know your path.

Yeah. But the horses did after that encounter bring them forward. And that very evening, the men are posted up in their tents and there's one man from this group who starts to taunt the spirit. He's basically like, "She must be afraid of us. She let us through. I bet she's so afraid of the silver bullet in my pistol. I'm a big big man."

Macho.

Yeah. [clears throat] And so immediately after saying this, his body is ripped from his place. He's hovering in the air

and he feels this unseen force that is so intense and it starts to stab him. Not literally, but he physically has the sensations of being stabbed over and over and over again while he's being

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like suspended in the air. And then he's thrown out the door. So he says, "Oh, you're afraid of me." And she's like, "I'm going to grab you by your balls, stab you, and toss you out of this place.

You should be afraid of me."

Yeah. And then she spoke. The witch spoke and she said that there was another fraud amongst them and that she will return for him the next day. So, you would think all of the guys would be like, "Holy [ __ ] we're so scared. Run for the hills." But no, Andrew Jackson was in charge of them and he said, "Ooh, there's another fraud. I must see who it is. I need

I don't blame him. Like, I would want to know."

He was there for the drama. Yeah. But they never got a chance. So, while he said they had to stay to figure out who the fraud was the next day, they fled that very evening. And the details of what happened are not known. They were seen at like a pub or something very early the next morning

and Andrew Jackson supposedly declared, "I'd rather fight the British than the bell witch."

That's tea, that sentence, if that's what he really said.

Okay, so now by 1820, the paranormal activity is like still continuing and

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John Bell's health is getting worse. He's having seizures. He's having trouble swallowing. He's getting weaker and weaker by the day. But the bell witch loved this. She had proclaimed that she wanted to hurt John Bell. Right. So she's happy to see him struggling and she kept pushing him down. Like literally if John Bell was struggling to get up, she would just like flick him. That's what I imagine. And he fall down.

Yeah.

When he would put his shoes on to leave, she would rip them off. And then one morning in 1820, John was found dead with a vial of a strange black liquid nearby. And one of the sons, like I hate this part, but one of the sons saw the vial and was like, "What is this?" And so he tested it on the family cat.

And the family cat immediately lied down and died.

Yeah.

And immediately, supposedly allegedly, the voice of the bell witch came through gloating, taking credit for killing John Bell by saying, "Oh, I gave old Jack a big dose of that last night, which fixed

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him." [snorts] Yeah. So, she just admitted to murder. However, you can't really do anything about that because she's already dead,

right? So, John has a funeral and it's one of the biggest funerals in town because this family knew everyone. They were like a big part of the community,

which is also why it's a little tough when you talk about like was Kate in the wrong or was she just an innocent party that was being blamed because they were so wellliked in their community. But that's what has been told since and it's all being told like this is a narrative being told by the Bell family.

True. There are descendants of the bells.

A few books written but the most popular is from a descendant.

So also in attendance at this funeral is uh the bell witch and her voice is heard laughing at the grave until the very last person left the funeral. But tormenting the family for years, terrifying a future president and killing a man wasn't enough. The bell witch continued to she basically would warn the family like I will be back. She also haunted them so much that going

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back to Betsy, Betsy was engaged to a man to get married and the hauntings happened so much especially when she was with her fiance

that she ended up breaking off the engagement. And I very much believe that the bell witch like saw something wrong with her fianceé and was trying to protect Betsy because the second she broke off the engagement, the hauntings to her stopped.

Well, I guess and to further this theory, she did get married to another man a few years later

and the bell witch had nothing to say about him.

Exactly. So, I kind of view the bell witch as like, yes, it's terrible. Don't kill anyone, but I don't view her as evil or malicious. I view her as well but I don't know she was like it's an abusive relationship. She's trying to be involved in someone's relationship and looking out for them in terms of like who they choose as a partner. But on the flip side, she's slapping that girl so hard she has welts and handprints on her body.

That's true.

Yeah, just as a reminder. It is. Yes, I was forgetting that mo that part of it. But it's tough. And she did reportedly

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tell the family she would return in 7 years. And she did return. Then she apparently said she would return and I think it was like 130 years or something like that.

But there's no at that point there was no descendants of the Bell family on that land to confirm whether or not

she did. Um but to this day some historians call this the only case in American history where a spirit was blamed for a man's death. So a spirit murdered someone. And after John's death things did quiet down until like I said 7 years later after she said she would return. She returns and the Bell witch or Kate as she called herself returned before subsiding once again. Today, while the Bell family home, the structure that they lived in is long gone, there is the cave still on the property. And this became central to the legend. So around the property, people see lights, shadow figures, they hear whispers. But in the cave, this seems to be where all of most of the activity is centralized. And it makes sense because the belief is that she is living in the

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cave. And also caves are a perfect place to to haunt. All that water, the stone, like it's a great energy vortex.

And when we were there, our tour guide said that like a week or two before everyone heard a woman screaming and they ran for their lives out of the cave. And it was a good thing that they did cuz it wasn't a woman screaming. It was a mountain lion in the cave with them.

What's more terrifying?

Yeah. So, inside the cave, visitors will report hearing voices, seeing shadows, being physically pushed or touched by unseen hands. And also, I will say if you're going to go to the cave, it's not just like this easy thing where you walk in like you were kind of climbing over things. Remember, there were parts where it was like be really careful. Like you really you're scaling some rocks at certain points. So, if you're being touched or shoved, like there are some really dangerous parts that like you could seriously be injured. Yeah, rocks are thrown, cameras malfunction, there are sudden cold spots that envelop anyone who dare walk near the witch's cave. And many believe that this is her, the bell witch's permanent dwelling place. So,

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we're left with the question, why or how did this happen? And we're going to look to the stars for answers.

We are. So, with Alisa, we're going to look at a couple key dates from this case and see what the hell was going on.

Mhm.

We're so excited.

welcome Aliza

Well, hello. Thank you for being here. I'm so happy to be here with you.

The annual trip that you have to take you coming out.

Yes. No, I mean especially this time of year like this is like I feel like I get summoned

to New England to to the Salem area,

right?

Yes.

I love it.

And we're going on a ghost tour tonight which you're coming with us.

This is this is I live for this.

I've never gone on a Salem ghost tour.

Me neither.

Yeah. We've always just

We've just You've given you given it to me. Yes.

And I'm excited to learn more for my future self-guided tours.

Do we know if the tour guide is going to be in costume?

I don't.

Oh, that's a good question. I have no idea.

Yeah, I hope so, too. We'll find out.

It's October. They have to be, right?

Yeah. I mean, how else will you find the

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tour?

Like,

well, then it's going to be confusing cuz everyone's dressed up. Who's who?

True. [laughter] I mean, just for a second, I just want to say that the first time that I was in Salem in October was a year ago when I recorded with you guys here. So many people were like warning me about Salem at this time. They're like, "It's so crowded. It's so touristy. You're going to hate it." Like how wrong they were. I was like, "If this is tourism, like, baby, sign me up."

It's like the ideal type of It's like all witchery and like occulty and spooky tourism. Like that's my dream.

It's like Halloween Town.

It is. It literally feels like Halloween Town. Like walking down that [laughter]

just is Salem. Yeah. Like 10 out of 10. Like couldn't recommend it more.

But I will say that there was something like extra special about seeing like so many like little kids dressed up as witches and like just people wearing costumes just like wandering the streets just cuz they could. I'm like

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driving here this morning. I had to drive through the thick of Salem and like I was sitting in like there was so much traffic. But again, the same thing you're saying like I just got to see all these people walking through the streets in excitement celebrating witchcraft and spooky things. And I was like

I could sit here all day and watch people

like it's such a joyous experience.

It's like I will absolutely try to make a point to come up here. Well, we could do this annually. of course, but also like I mean I think that for everybody should have this experience like it's really profoundly magical.

I mean there are people who come every single year because it's that special to them.

It looks like it's going to be

Yeah. [laughter] And I will say one other thing that I really admire about Salem, everyone is so unique and so completely themselves and so nice. Like it's very Yeah. It's almost like Stars Holo vibes in the way that like people will just strike up conversation and it is really nice to just be like

everyone could just truly be who they

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are here

and it just feels so warm and so welcoming

which is so crazy to say about a place that had

such horrific happenings.

Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Yeah. There's there's like the reclaiming aspect of things too. I mean, like, could you imagine what those like all of those people who are like prosecuting and persecuting these women

would think now when the whole town is just a whole bunch of witches coming to conquer

such a good pointing [laughter] and screaming witch. It's just like I take you as you are and that's such a nice

Yeah, the witches. The witches won.

The witches won.

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Bell Witch initial thoughts

Well, the bell witch.

Yeah. Speaking of witch.

Speaking of which, [laughter]

so we, like we said, we did a little introduction to the bell witch. And now with you, we're going to look at the dates and the stars and what the heck was happening.

Yeah. I mean so it's interesting like there are in astrology especially in like astrology that spans so many decades like this right like this is a this is a rolling story this is a story that like keeps on given

we're looking at not so much like what the moon for instance is doing right like a quick moving planet whereas if we had like a very specific day of an event we would look at like all of the little you know faster moving right

planetary bodies in this case, we're looking at like the bigger patterns and

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bigger swings,

right?

And I wish that we had a date like before we get into all of this. Actually, I'm kind of curious like who do you think Kate Bell witch really is? Like what's her story?

I don't think it's actually Kate Bats. I think she kind of became the Speaking of like witchcraft, like I feel like she became the accused and like someone pointed a finger. Oh, she was the eccentric lady in town. Like I think it was all her. I more believe that there is some energy on this land that existed and maybe was unhappy when the Bell family bought purchased the land and started making their own settlement there.

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like that's what we had discussed when we first covered this episode like in the first year of our podcast. But since then, especially over the past like year or two, Sabrina and I have had a lot of conversations about the idea that a piece of someone's soul or like when someone goes through a traumatic event, it can kind of like chip off and become

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its own entity outside of that person, even if they're still living. And so I I do question if this maybe was a part of Kate who she maybe she did have this horrendous and stressful land dispute with the Bell family and because of that it just was allconsuming for her at the time and it damaged her in a way that like did cause a lot of trauma or bad feelings or spiteful feelings and the hope that well maybe if Jon just dies I won't have this land issue with him anymore. And so I am curious if like maybe those ideas in a space that maybe already had energy to be able to like create this with such intensity if that is what spurred

especially like the fact that now people say it lingers in the cave like a cave made of who knows how old the stone is and then the water that dripping dripping through it. I feel like it is like such an energetic

place that could fester some energy and become stronger and stronger. Well, and

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Sabrina and I have been there and right outside of the cave, we went in it.

We didn't see the witch.

No. [laughter]

Um, no.

Cuz she would like you.

She was like, "Welcome girls."

Because that's also like she had like she had things she liked and things she didn't like. Like she was very particular.

She really didn't like John.

Did not like him.

No. [laughter] Not so much.

But Betsy's fiance, I feel like it was like a don't marry this guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But right outside of the cave, when you're walking along the path to the cave, there is a river and people will like kayak and tube down the river. So there's also rushing water going through the property right outside of this cave where the bell witch is said to still exist.

What happened to the house? Does anyone know?

A version of it still stands. Remember we went through I don't know if it's like a remake of it, but it's an empty like old farm cabiny house.

Yeah. But I think the original structure like the full house is no longer in existence. Can't quite remember.

Yeah, I'm asking all of these questions

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because like you know I'm trying to there's some really interesting things that come out.

Some interesting things that also like hearken to some things that are happening now in astrology too which is always like tea.

What a time to be an astrologologist too. Oh my god.

Tell me about it. [laughter]

It's every like how do you sleep at night?

Do I sleep at night? Good question. [laughter] My thoughts on this after going down like a deep deep bell witch rabbit hole

is that I do feel like it is kind of the land communicating in a way that people the living who are receiving that are going to be able to understand it.

I think that it's very adaptive. Like there were reports from later on from decades that followed of the bell witch visiting people in like Europe. Did you guys see that?

It was like a much later on. It was like beyond it was like in these retelling stories. I think these were in like the 1930s where it was like talking to it

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was like the grandson of the Bell Witch family and someone was like, "Oh, I don't believe in it." And then their family in Europe was visited by the Bell Witch. like it's an entity that feels like it's going to communicate in whatever way it needs to be heard.

But it also seems like it's attached to the bells. So maybe not just the property itself or whoever resides on it

if it's still visiting descendants of the bells and declaring that it will inund years.

Right. I mean so clearly there was an issue. There was like beef with the bells which I think

it is the bell

witch. [laughter] Yeah. But I also do think that's why people get attached to this Kate Bats idea because there is belief while not proven by records because I think it's hard to but that Kate Bats was a descendant of or a relative to the Bell family and then there was a dispute. So it would make sense that a family member would be haunting the family.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And a family member who maybe was like excommunicated or

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like was not welcoming.

Bell's property purchase

Yeah. So I um well I [laughter] how do I put this? I have an eighth house stium and I have a Scorpio midheaven and when I get into something I go really really deep. I love that about you. So I was able to find the date of the purchase property for

so which is amazing because in astrology it's like we really want to get as much exact information as possible. Yeah. So, this property was purchased on June 1st, 1804, and that means that this property is a Gemini sun and a Pisces moon.

And we don't have a rising because we don't have the exact time, right?

Um, but some of the other uh outer planets that we're going to be paying attention to are Saturn and Jupiter. Um, we're also going to be talking a lot about Neptune and Pluto, which I'll get into in a moment. But something that's

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really compelling about this chart in particular is that those outer planets and outer planets in astrology represent bigger generational stories. Um, which is why we would track something like those outer planets when we're looking at like the many many years that this was going on rather than just like the moon which changes signs every two and a half days.

Where the outer planets are sort of give an imprint of the zeitgeist of a moment. So, we're looking at what's the zeitgeist, like the true witch, the true spirit of this experience. What's crazy to me is that on this day of the purchase property, they were all locked in together. Saturn was at 26°, Jupiter was at 26°, Neptune was at 24°, the moon happened to be at 24°, Venus was at 26°. So they're all in that little like pizza pie wedge when you're looking at an actual chart. Is that what it is?

So this is like the they're in different signs, but they're all sort of coming

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together at the same point. So they're all in communication.

Okay.

So they're all sort of and there's this theory in astrology that anything that's at the same degree, no matter what sign it's in, is all working together. It's like they're all hearing and seeing each other. So there is this sort of like

energy that it's like a vortex energy where it like sort of

which feels so applicable for the bell witch like this. It feels like a vortex energy. Yes.

And we'll include these charts in the video if you're watching.

Great. Amazing. Yeah. So it's it sort of like sucks it in and it also sets this tone and this precedent for working with these outer planets in this more active way. M

I also feel like that's one of the reasons I'm sort of imagining this to be more of a historical entity.

And yes, it's like maybe the Bell family was sort of like who got the brunt of it,

but it also is like, you know, America at this time

was so haunted because, you know, we

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were colonizing over land that was already occupied. And there was so much grief and sadness and like tragedy in these walls of this cave and in this space and in this in these fields,

right? And I also imagine that like the spirits and the energy that already existed here that we're used to being respected by the people who live there.

Suddenly to have such disrespect and disregard by the people who are colonizing the land is bloodshed.

Yeah. It it fers negative a negative response.

Yes. And did you know that, and I'm jumping ahead a little bit here, but I also just think it's interesting for like thinking about like, okay, so the Bell the Bells purchased this property June 1st, 1804, what made them so like so susceptible to this? But did you know that John Bell was excommunicated from his church a few years before he died?

No. And I'm actually shocked to hear that because one of the things with his funeral was like everyone came to his funeral. He was so popular around town.

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Like the bells were loved. Well, t because he was excommunicated from his church and that's a date that I have because it's in the church records

and Yes. Well, because we were talking about when we were setting up the story how so much of it has been shared by the Bell family. Like the Bell family got to write the history, write the story. So, of course, they're going to say John Bell was beloved and like this great figure in this society. But

you've got the tea.

Yeah, I got the tea. He was excommunicated because he was overcharging for interest. Usery, I think that's what it's called.

So, he was shady.

Yeah, he was shady.

Okay. So, maybe Kate was being taken advantage of or he did [ __ ]

around or this family in the way that they were sort of exploiting the land and the property,

whatever the entities that there were, and whether that was like an entity that then was like working with Kate, right? Cuz like I could imagine that to be the case, too, where it's like empowering her.

Yep. Mhm.

I mean, the fact that it's like a disembodied voice also like wild.

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Yes.

Well, I want to hear. [laughter]

Me, too.

Like coming from the ether. Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. Like bouncing off the walls. Like obviously there was a lot of strength and vortex vibes in order to like give this spirit that much power to be able to communicate in that way and also like have preferences. Be like, I like you, do not like you. Right. Like [laughter] it's very conscious. Yes. So I I wonder if his approach in getting this property was also a shady transaction.

I imagine

which you're right. Like if the bells are retelling the story

Yeah.

then we're not going to really understand sort of like why they might be

Mhm.

problem problematic.

Exactly.

And he didn't acquire all 300 acres at once. It was over years he kept acquiring more and more land. So I think there were Yeah, I think there were probably multiple families or individuals that he purchased land

off of or tried to make deals with.

36:00

So then that's probably why he was excommunicated, something like that, right? If he's charging if it's because it was deemed like uncchristian and unethical, which it is, right? To be like, you owe me and now I'm going to add like 200%.

To the interest. I'm so glad that you

the first haunting

did all this research because like I'm not surprised at all and I knew that there was a there was more to the story in terms of right who John Bell was.

Yeah, I think that he was uh I mean there's a reason, right? It's not just because it's wrong place wrong time.

There's always sort of there has to be some sort of two sides [laughter] every witches version.

Yeah. Come believe women [laughter]

perfect family guy. I can't imagine that that would have enough power to like

Yeah, exactly.

or create such spite in this spirit,

right? There's reason.

So, the first haunting was in 1817.

Yep.

And that's a long time after they purchased the property,

right?

It's a few decades after. I mean, it's

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1804.

1804 to 1817.

So, by this point, those outer planets that we were looking at when the property was first purchased have shifted. But the crazy thing is is that they're locked in again. So

I just got two.

So remember that we had said that Saturn in the first in the purchase property Saturn was at 26°

of Virgo. Jupiter was at 26° of Libra. Now Saturn is at 5° of Pisces and Jupiter is at 5° of Sagittarius. So

how often does something like this happen? I would say that for these two to be at the same degree is going to only happen maybe once every 12 years or something.

You know, it's like

it is interesting given that a lot of the hauntings like in the story in the retelling the bell witch claimed like I'm going to come back in seven years. I'm going to come back in 30 years.

So I'm curious like yeah like do the

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stars tell a story in terms of that timeline? Yes, they do because those are also astrological increments like

oh

7 years is a quarter of a Saturn cycle and that's why like you know a sevenyear itch in a marriage or something or like when people are start to like

or even when you're 14 years old and you kind of go through that's like your coming of age time that's a Saturn cycle right increments of seven are Saturn

and that includes 30 you know 30 is part of a Saturn that's when we go through our Saturn return is between 29 9 and 30. So like this is a Saturn story that the bell witch is on

which is really interesting.

Interell witch is in her Saturn return.

Yeah. The bell witch is like going through her own Saturn return through this process and like becoming more and more like angry and being like actually I deserve better.

Yes.

This is cool.

This is so cool.

Yeah. So we have again these planets locked back in. Saturn at 5° of Pisces,

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Jupiter at 5° of Sagittarius. Now what starts to happen at this first haunting is we start to pay more attention to that Pisces area because that Pisces area that Saturn is occupying starts to build up with more and more planets. And by the time this sort of crescendos, which we'll talk about, it's not just a few planets that are in Pisces. It's like a [ __ ] ton of planets that are in Pisces.

Okay.

And Pisces is the last sign of the zodiac and is very much associated with like between realms, things on the other side.

So, I have goosebumps because I'm thinking about the fact that like there's this sort of vortex moment. There are these like lockin energies and then as these hauntings start to intensify it's like the that power between our reality and these liinal spaces like more and more starts piling up in those liinal

40:00

interesting.

So as of the first haunting we had Saturn at 5° of Pisces, Juno at 11° of Pisces, Chiron at 21 degrees of Pisces, Pluto at 25° of Pisces. Juno is an asteroid that represents marriage, but it also represents being wronged. It's the mythology around those two.

Well, the mythology around it, it's like the sacrifice of marriage and like the heaviness too.

It's Juno is Hera in Greek mythology, which was Zeus's wife. And as you know from Greek mythology, like Zeus was like not a good husband. He was [clears throat] like philanderer. Were there any in Greek mythology?

That's a trick question. You have the occasional like mench, but like not not very. Yeah,

but Zeus was like really bad. I mean, Zeus kept like forcing, you know, was really causing a lot of heartbreak and damage all around Mount Olympus and and

41:00

here on Earth, you know.

So, and but Hara Juno was his wife who was like, "What am I gonna do? This is my husband." Like it's giving like stand by your man, you know. So

it's hard when your man has really intense magical powers.

Yeah. When he's right when he's the king of the gods and then you are also elevated in your role too.

So Juno's archetype is very much about like yes, we're committing but there's a sacrifice in it. And for her like that sacrifice was

knowing that her husband was like a an unfaithful person

and sort of accepting that as her fate

was that she was being cheated on constantly.

Chiron speaking of like who are the who were who was not cheating on people. Chiron is a comet in astrology that represents the wounded healer. the mythology of Chiron is that he was uh he was one of like these these very few sort of figures that were actually just

42:00

like focused, philosophical, um very committed to his work, but then Hercules came into his lab and was like all like drunk and a mess and he got stabbed with one of the elixirs that he was working on and it ended up

Oh jeez.

giving him a fatal wound.

My gosh, this is so comic book.

It's so comic book. Yeah, right. You could see like this is in the Marvel universe [laughter] obviously.

And so he ended up living with this wound. So Chiron in the chart represents a wound that we live with and that we end up being able to heal and teach around.

And then there's Pluto. Pluto is the underworld. Pluto is transformation and depth and intensity and darkness. And it's basically everything that is subterranean and hidden and how we literally it is caves. It's caves. It's diamonds.

They even tried to take Pluto away from our our planetary system and try to hide it away.

They they did. But Pluto astrology wise

43:00

it's like they would try to do that to Pluto. Pluto [laughter] is not going

makes a lot of sense for Pluto. But these planets and asteroids and comets in particular are all very intense archetypes

including Saturn who's there which represents responsibility and maturity and also as we talked about like that's where you go through your Saturn return but it's also where you learn how to stand up for yourself

and defend yourself. So there and in Pisces, which is the last sign of the zodiac, there is this like emotionality and intensity and sensitivity to it. But I also like to think cuz we can think of Pisces as sort of like the ultimate, you know, crybaby in a lot of ways.

But Pisces is also like very powerful. It's the ocean, right? It's floods. It's tsunamis. And the energy of all of this coming together in Pisces is really giving tsunami. You know, it's

44:00

like the flood is coming,

which literally when the first haunting started, it was like floodgates opened and it was intense for this family.

Yeah. So, do you remember what the very first haunting was?

The very first encounter was John Bell was out in the farm and he witnessed like an entity that had the body of a dog ahead of a rabbit and it was like very off-putting. He shot at it and it disappeared.

And then the next day is when the tapping, the knocking, the scratching, all of the stuff started happening.

Pulling like cover pulling

in on their property. And within a few days, like they were being attacked and sheets being yanked off of them.

That creature feels very much sort of like twofold to me. I mean, first of all, it is twofold, right? It's like a bifrocated creature, which is,

you know, something like what would come up from the underworld, right? like it's it's a creature of duality

and often when we think about these archetypes like we are thinking about

45:00

them from this mythological perspective of like your shadow side.

So it's like both something that comes up with this duality from this liinal space but then it's also something that comes up to [ __ ] with you,

right? Like it's something that comes up to be like oh [ __ ] like you things are about to get crazy, right? Like that is it's an omen to see something like that because it

confuses you and it distorts you and it also paralyzes you, right? Like he tried to shoot at it because that clearly is the John Bell way. I'm sure he was shooting at lots of [ __ ]

Like that was and

yeah, get rid of your enemies.

Get rid of your enemies?

Can't because it's like is it even a creature? You know, like you you don't have dominion over this, right?

And it's so interesting cuz as far as we could see, he didn't encounter anything like this again. It truly was the omen

appearing in the field.

That's interesting.

And then it was all it was sounds.

It was became like this auditory

46:00

experience

and then a physical one too at one by the end.

Truly. Yeah.

John Bell and Red River Baptist Church

Okay. So, we have that first haunting from 1817. I also wanted to add that we do have that John Bell received into Red River Baptist Church. We have that date. That's April 20th, 1805. And I wanted to call that out and for our listeners, like table that, put a pin in it because we're going to see that date come up again later.

I just got chills. I don't even know what it is. And I just got chills.

So John Bell is received into the Red River Baptist Church,

a April 20th, 1805. So we'll just

we'll think about what was going on then.

Okay. I have also him excommunicated from the church on the date of January 15th, 1818. So, okay, that is before this alleged Andrew

Yeah. visit.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What's interesting here with this excommunication date is

47:00

the fact that we also have this sort of like, you know, we were talking about these planets that were sort of locked in before.

We have more planets that are now shifting into Pisces. So, it's like there's that flood is starting to build, like that intensity is swirling. But we also have this really rare conjunction that's taking place between Uranus, which is the planet of unexpected shocking things, Neptune, which is the planet of illusion and often considered like one of the haunting spooky planets.

Um, cuz it's illusion and delusion. It's also like disembodied things. It would be sort of like the things that we can't quite see. And then Jupiter which is the planet of expansion makes everything larger. So shocking things illusion and delusion and the mystic and Jupiter at 29° of Sagittarius. Now Jupiter at 29° of Sagittarius most recently was when co started. So just as like an interesting sort of recent

48:00

Yeah.

um reference point what we astrologers were talking about then was that Jupiter Sagittarius is like worldwide. It's like expand it's like it's everything right it's wildfires

right

and Jupiter in its doicile likes to be there because Jupiter wants to make everything bigger. So it can take something that's happening and truly like, you know, make it go viral, [laughter]

disseminate it, right? Like make it make it widespread,

which does seem interesting because the hauntings do become very public and a lot of people are talking about it, which then leads to the presumed or alleged visit of Andrew Jackson in 1819.

1819 Andrew Jackson visit

Yes. So the 1819 and let me pull that one up here.

And I think like because there is debate, did Andrew Jackson actually show up to the house? Regardless, many people were coming to visit the Bell family to see the hauntings and the Bell Witch themselves.

Yeah. And I think that what that also sort of communicates for us is the fact

49:00

that this was something that was like being like now widely recognized as a thing.

Yeah.

And this is two years into haunting. So like this thing is persisting and I'm sure gossip was spreading like crazy.

Yeah. And there's accounts of like a family member or a family friend coming to stay and he was like I don't know about this and then he was like peace I'm not staying here tonight

bye [laughter] became believers after stepping foot on this land.

Yes. So the Andrew Jackson visit to me is sort of interesting because it you know the astrology is sort of like you know we have those same points that are happening and we don't have an exact date for this. So, we're sort of looking at just the bigger sweeping patterns here around what's transpiring and we still have that energy building in Pisces which is going to be mounting in this upcoming year and this extended sort of experience of of Jupiter spreading this around um Neptune gaining more and more sort of power at these

50:00

final degrees of Sagittarius. Uranus also continuing forward at 22 degrees of Sagittarius. Like there's just this like I would say that the vibe fundamentally is kind of like this like liftoff energy that we have around this time. I was reading something about like the the speculation of Andrew Jackson in that if he had done this and then like ran away that would have been used against him in his presidential election because apparently his presidential election was like very much about like as much slander as possible. It was like bring out everything that they have ever these candidates have ever done wrong. And this sort of um retrospective was like if he had gone and then ran away from a witch like you better believe that would have been thrown back in his face,

right? Maybe this was also the Bell family trying to add to their own credibility too,

right?

And they could have because someone did say that there was a sighting of Andrew

51:00

Jackson and his like posi in the area at like a tavern or something the next morning. So, I wonder if that's kind of where the rumor started, like if they truly were in the area and then

and why else would they be in the area if not to visit the bell witch? Right.

Right. So, it was the opportunity to be like, "Oh, well, they were they're not in the area anymore cuz they fled from the bell witch."

Interesting. They out.

It's hard to know.

It's so hard to know because 1819.

Yeah. If only we could teleport back in time. But what's also interesting is the fact that like in the late 1800s and that's when this account was written,

they were like, "We got to make sure we document everything here because like we don't [clears throat] want this lore to be forgotten,

right?"

Like this lore is is too good, too juicy

cuz it is it's like a very

if we are to believe that everything that has been recorded did happen as it was recorded. Yeah. It's a very very potent haunting that lasted years and years. And also like what else was

52:00

happening in this area? Like [laughter] this was their claim to fame. Yeah.

Especially because they're like, you know, they're close to Nashville. Nashville's got stuff going on. What do they have?

Yeah, they have they have the national music scene. [laughter] They've got the witch

Cyruses.

John Bell falls into a coma

So the next date that we have is when John Bell falls into a coma.

December 20th.

December 19th.

Oh, December 19th.

And then he dies the next day.

Okay. Yes. And these dates like really knocked the wind out of me when we looked at them because we actually one have dates for these which is really cool.

So first of all it was we had a sun Uranus conjunction on this day. The sun is our identity. It's what we're doing sort of it's you know what we're doing in the day right? It's like how we are experiencing being alive.

And it's making an exact conjunction to Uranus, which is the planet of shocking

53:00

things, unexpected things, surprises,

and they're both at 28°. So, right next to that point that we were just talking about where Jupiter had been right before, right? Jupiter was at 29 degrees of Sagittarius when we talked about it like disseminating. Y

now these are at that same point again. So we have that sort [clears throat] of like this story is sort of like really making itself very clear.

Yeah.

As it relates to sort of this you know the next steps of this like the crescendo the the climax the finality. Neptune the planet of illusion and delusion is at 0 degrees. This is a very big deal. Neptune moves signs very rarely. Neptune it takes 165 years for it to make a full orbit. So it changes signs you know every 14 15 years right

and on this day Neptune had just moved into a new sign of Capricorn which means

54:00

that it was at 0 degrees and in astrology the zero degree point is a very big deal because it's the beginning of something new

so we have this sort of conclusion and something new happening simultaneously and the reason that

looking at this and I was like Oh, there's a lot of interesting parallels to this moment in time is because this year Neptune just changed signs. Neptune just moved into Aries at 0 degrees for the first time this year.

It had been in Pisces since 2011.

So, this is the end and the beginning of a new era also. And when that happens, it's like there is this

shift that takes place. There is this like cultural shift, a shift of awareness. You know, I think about Neptune moving into Pisces in 2011. And for so many of us, that was really when we started to get Instagram, when we started to expand our social media beyond just like

Facebook

55:00

and started to see social media as something that was not just tangential to life, but actually becoming life at that time. So that's just an example of like how big the changes of this planetary movement can be on society. Neptune moving into Capricorn, it took 165 years for Neptune to move back into Capricorn again. It wasn't in Capricorn until the 80s most recently. It was in Capricorn in like, you know, it went in in like 1987 or something. So this was a really, really big shift that was taking place at this moment. And then on top of that, we were talking about this big Pisces energy that was building.

So now we have Jupiter in Pisces by this point, the planet of expansion, the north node of destiny also in Pisces, Pluto is still in Pisces, Chiron is still in Pisces, but right now at the time of this recording, the North Node

56:00

is also in Pisces right now.

So it's interesting that we're talking about it all. This is all a little creepy

because that's [laughter] what we call a nodal return. So this is right now the nodal return of John Bell's death right now. And not only that, [clears throat]

is that the moment that like the wind was knocked out of you? Cuz that is really spooky.

It's at the exact same point. Also, this is at 17° right now. It's at 18 currently. It's going to be at 17 by the end of today.

Oh my god.

Yes. So, like we are

Is this cool or is this scary? I don't

know. It's cool. It feels cool to me.

It's cool.

It's almost like it needed to be talked about.

Like we had our Patreon members vote on what topic to pick and there was a resounding choice to do the bell witch and I just feel like everything fell in place,

which I was actually surprised about. I mean, the bell witch, we referenced it a bunch, but I feel like some of the options that we gave were super cool and maybe had more specific or available dates too to draw on. People wanted this

57:00

universe supposed to do this.

Yes. They wanted this.

The bell witch wanted this.

The bell witch wanted us to talk about her.

Yeah. And be like, "Look what I can do."

Yeah.

Or redeem herself a little bit and be like, "Actually, I'm not Kate."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're actually like, "This guy was like really a shithead."

Yeah.

This guy was a big problem.

Damn.

You know what? I kind of respect and admire someone seeking vengeance or like revenge on someone who wronged them and being so committed to it that it lasts potentially centuries and that they keep coming forward and being like, "Let me tell you what a [ __ ] this guy was. My neighbor sucked and let me tell you why."

It does also go back to K what you mentioned like in terms of theories of what this haunting is. I do believe that this land and when you go back to like native beliefs and superstitions of like paranormal entities that inhabited the land, there was so much respect and nowadays I feel like we don't have as

58:00

much respect for them.

Yeah.

And it makes sense that whatever this entity is has now it's beyond the Bell family. It's beyond John and him being a terrible person. It's like no, I need to like teach lessons to people. Yeah.

Generally.

Yeah. I mean, and that is also That's like the premise of so many of the slasher films, too, right? [laughter] It's like if you do this, then you end up ouchy ouchie. But like this is one of those stories where um I feel like we have more information now than we did when this was first being accounted

of like I mean to me the excommunication from the church is like very compelling

and fascinating for painting a a portrait of this person

you know and if it is true that Kate was wronged in some sort of a land deal some sort of a land dispute

then that also sort of proves proves and checks out the fact that like she was defending herself in some way.

59:00

And that is, you know, so much of the origins of witchcraft, right? Is is people who were being persecuted, who were living on their own, who were trying to people were trying to steal their land and they were like fending them off. Right. Well, and like that also just like makes me even more makes me believe even more that this is like a combination of Kate working with whatever energy is already on the land because it is so much about protection of land.

Mhm.

And doing the right thing.

Fascinating.

Suffer. Yeah.

And who's to say how long your suffering will last? Maybe centuries.

Centuries.

Yeah. [laughter] So the day that he dies, the sun is at 29° of Sagittarius. Uranus is at 29° of Sagittarius. So now they are exactly conjunct where they were when the haunting started with Jupiter with where that was.

So it is like a full Yeah, it is like a full point of reference, right? And 29°

1:00:00

I haven't mentioned this yet.

So we talked about the significance of 0 degrees. um being the first of something 29 is the last. So 29 is considered the anoretic degree in astrology. It's a very powerful point. You know whenever I see 29 degrees in someone's chart or in a date, I'm like, huh?

Like what are we doing at 29? You know, like what message? What's the lesson here?

Because it means that you've basically reached the end of the line,

but yet there's still something that you need to like

before completely restarting. Exactly. there's like some final lesson there for you. The sun at 29, I mean this happened December 20th is the day of depending on what time he died that's winter solstice.

Um so that's the day the darkest day of the year is winter solstice.

So it's this sort of that's alone as a portal. You know, we think of winter solstice as this like powerful portal moment where we also in modern

1:01:00

traditions, modern and ancient traditions, what we would be doing is basically doing a bunch of solar rituals to try to invite the sun back, you know, like this is why we have a Christmas tree

is like we're l we're decorating everything in lights cuz we're like no, no, no, like son, we want more. We want we love you. Like don't do this seasonal depression. Yeah. Yeah. And this is definitely like this is a powerful life and death portal, you know? It really is. So, the fact that this happened when the sun was at 29 degrees shifting into Capricorn. Oh my god. And I just realized as I'm looking at this that depending on what time he died, the sun would have been crossing from the 29th degree Sagittarius where it was conjunct with Uranus, shocking things over to Neptune at 0 degrees of Capricorn cuz that they're right next to each other.

Oh my gosh.

Sagittarius goes into Capricorn. So like the sun was kind of shifting from something shocking into that liinal

1:02:00

Neptune space

of between worlds. You know what happened normally that like things are so perfect?

No, this is special. This is special.

I also just love Thank you so much for being like I feel like you make astrology so digestible and understandable. So like cuz even though I don't know all like the specifics of like what degrees mean, what planets mean, you just are explaining it so well that like

well astrology astrology tells a story, right? Like I'm a forensic detective [laughter]

and this is my DNA. like this is this is how I tell the story [laughter] and it is really special. We also going back to that Pisces pile up Jupiter and the south node exact or Jupiter and the north node rather of destiny exactly conjunct like

100% this was a mystical death.

Wow.

I I do not think

because as I was looking at it cuz he died from poison, right? And they gave it to the cat. Yeah,

1:03:00

the cat died. Saddest part of the story.

Like horrible.

Why would you give it to your cat?

So callous. I mean, no wonder this family is being tortured. Look at the [ __ ] they

They don't even care about their

They're like, "Oh, give it to the cat."

Yeah.

The cat died like in like it's right by him. He just died. You already have this entity saying that it's going to kill your father. Like, do you really need to just give it to the cat to prove it?

You do not. Justice for the cat.

Justice for the cat.

Yeah.

But also, like, I was reading this and I was like, "Okay, well, could he have committed suicide?" Like is this a suicide thing? He was excommunicated. His life is falling apart. Like there's also

varying accounts as to whether he was sick or not like and his health was declining. That's interesting to me.

Like some say he was like

having seizures leading up to it.

Yes. And others say that he was like right as rain.

Yeah.

So that's another sort of conflicting

conflicting narratives.

But I would say that to me the energy of this does feel more supernatural than not. M I agree with that. I mean, like

1:04:00

even now, centuries later, this story is referenced as being the only time or one of the few times in history that it's believed that a spirit has actually killed someone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it sounds like all evidence points to that. True.

Yes. [laughter] The DNA.

The DNA. That's what I got.

Or is it like a telltale heart situation, right? Like is he also being driven mad by his own guilt? M that's possible.

Yeah. It's also weird though because it's like yes, everything was directed at John for the most part and he is the one that suffered and died, but his daughter, everyone who was living in the house at the time experienced something. The kids were tormented, but his daughter like what did she do? Why was she so harassed? Like she was being the next that she was being Yeah. she had like physical marks on her body. But that also reminds me of I don't know if anyone's watched this movie, An American Haunting. Mhm.

where it's like to deal with the trauma of

1:05:00

spoiler alert for everyone and I haven't seen it in like 15 years so I might be butchering this but I think the premise was like this girl was being like sexually assaulted by a family member and to deal with that trauma the like her and her mom and family members who were witness to it. It was shown as like like a a ghost, right? Like this is we're being haunted by this thing. Like we can't deal with it actually being like a true monster inside of our house. So, we're turning this into a haunting.

Yeah.

So, I I almost wonder if like maybe that played a part in her story where like she is the only child out of all of the children to experience these really intense

Well, here's a question

and we're going to get into the date specifically in a minute, but like we talk about how Betsy experienced a lot of these hauntings when she was with her fianceé,

right?

Yeah. So, was the handmarks, the bruises, and all of these things that she was saying or that the family has now retold and written was from the bell witch haunting. Were these actually marks from her fiance? Because the

1:06:00

moment she broke off the engagement, it is said that her her haunting like stopped

and then not too long after she met another guy and they got married a few years later.

Totally fine.

Totally fine.

No involvement from the bell witch.

So,

yeah. I mean, that checks out to me,

right? Yeah.

Because the bell witch also really liked his wife Lucy.

Yeah.

She like wanted to like gossip with Lucy. I mean, like one of my favorite parts of this and in in doing the research on it was like that the bell witch like also wanted to like like tea on things [laughter] like the bell witch was also like like could you imagine that like disembodied voice like bouncing off the walls being like anyway the neighbor like let me [laughter] tell you the gossip. It reminded me like that part of the story reminded me so much of Jeff the Mongoose. Have you ever heard of that? No.

We won't get into it, but basically yeah, it's like this mongoose entity who loved to gossip.

It's like this is kind of the same energy where it's kind of like is it a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Like what does this thing want? It kind of I guess

1:07:00

it depends on like the family member and the time and what's going on because it's similar in that sometimes it's it's bad, sometimes it's good,

right? I mean it is interesting to think that like this was directed at Betsy to right like was it coming from her by the hands of her fiance right

or you know if we take out even that aspect and it is just sort of like the supernatural warning

of like pay attention like do not marry this man like I'm going to like poke you with pins and like do all of and like pull your hair and do all of this stuff

to make sure that you're listening to me,

right?

Like I think that

it's an aggressive way to make someone listen to you,

but she did listen.

But she did eventually listen. Yeah.

Lucy Bell visitation

Yeah. Okay. So, remember we were talking about April 20th.

Yeah.

So, April 20th is back again. April 20th, 1821. From April 16th to April 20th, 1821 is when the Lucy Bell visitation happens

and Betsy Bell breaks off her

1:08:00

engagement. Mhm.

And what struck me, and I sent you guys a screenshot of this when I was pulling all of the dates, [laughter]

is that there is the biggest pile up in Aries I have ever seen in my astrology career.

Mercury is in Aries, Chiron is in Aries, Mars is in Aries, Jupiter is in Aries, Venus is in Aries, Saturn is in Aries, and the sun is in Aries all at the same time. So that's 1 2 3 4 5 6 seven planets in Aries.

My god.

Yes. Oh, and it's a full moon, by the way. On April 16th, it's a full moon. So that and what that means, though, is that the moon, cuz it's, you know, it's it's a sun in Aries. The moon is in Libra. The moon is actually opposing all of these planets. The moon is in conversation with every single one of these planets over the course of these days. And Aries is a big radical shift

1:09:00

from that Pisces pileup we were experiencing. That Pisces pileup was like the, you know, it was the tsunami. It was the flood. It was the mystical. It was the supernatural. Aries is the rebirth. Aries is occurs, you know, at at the vernal equinox, spring equinox, and it's all about new beginnings. And it's also ruled by Mars, which is war, right? So, it has this like passion, aggressive, fiery energy to it, but it's a big departure from the story that had been told previously.

It's a big shift in what we were experiencing.

John is gone and Betsy has ended this relationship.

Yeah. Potential. We're declaring it

unhealthy relationship.

Unhealthy relationship.

Yeah. Well, the the men are gone.

The men are gone.

The men are gone. [laughter]

They're the men are gone. And the bell witch is like, "Girls, we're we're back." [laughter] Yeah.

Damn.

1:10:00

Yeah.

And the energy of this to me is very much sort of like I mean it it's there's a liberation to it to me it feels, you know, but this is also when we get that warning or is it a warning or is it just like I'll be back like

you're not you haven't seen the last of me yet. Like girls I'm coming. See the girls in your next life.

Yeah. Exactly. And this is when we establish that like sevenyear cadence or that 30-year cadence, right? Like this is when there's some sort of there's also an account of it being 107 years, right? Like there's some sort of like a time duration that gets established here. And to me looking at this big Aries pileup and considering that what it feels like is my work is done.

Mhm.

But like the story, you know, like don't forget the story. Don't forget the lessons that you we have learned here over the past couple of years.

Is it almost like a threat like if you do I'll come back and teach you again.

I think that it's it could be a threat.

1:11:00

I mean it is it feels threatening a little bit you know like this thing killed your husband made you break up your engagement but like it so yeah I think that there is a little bit of like watch watch what you do

but there also is this sort of like I'll come back as a reminder of this experience

right

like you are not going to forget the fact that this happened.

Yeah.

So yeah that's the uh that's the story.

Wow.

Yeah. That is so wild. I cannot believe how just like perfectly aligned everything seems to be. Yeah.

Yeah. And I I also like sort of weaving this story through the lens of like was the bell witch trying to protect the women in this family?

I love that as the narrative. And I feel like had we not had this conversation, the story kind of always would feel like, oh, it was attacking the family.

Mhm.

But I think it was misunderstood and it was doing something. It was trying to help them.

Yeah. I mean, I will go on like every supernatural show ever and be like, "Let's hear from the perspective of the

1:12:00

entity." Like,

I wish I wish we could. Truly, [laughter]

like, let's get their side of the story.

And the real evil sounds like it was John.

Yeah. I

Which is kind of unfortunate that it's called the Bell Witch. I feel like the name Yeah, she needs her rebrand.

She needs a rebrand

because Yeah, she doesn't need to be connected to him.

Totally.

Or be named after him. I do think that like this this energy of like prediction and after this it sort of shifts more into like prophecy, right? Like the bell witch starts to like prophesize about things and be like so the civil war is coming. Who's ready,

right?

Like [laughter]

Yeah.

Who's who's ready for big change?

God, if only she could have told us about co

Yeah. I mean, maybe she did. We just have to we have to listen.

We got to go down to the cave.

Although it sounds like she can travel.

It does sound like she could travel.

John Bell Jr visitation

Yeah,

there's one more date. I have the return to converse with John Bell Jr.

So that's seven years later, which is a Saturn cycle later because it's a seven

1:13:00

years.

For me, I'm really just like at this point I'm just sort of tuned into this tracking of Saturn, right? Like that's a quarter of a Saturn cycle. So I would guess that each of these a lot of what we had looked at in some of the previous the sort of like the building and the rising has dissipated at this point. Now Saturn is in Cancer. Jupiter is in Scorpio. That's spooky. But uh you know we still have some Neptune activity at this time. Mars and Neptune are working together. But this definitely you know it's like it's telling a different story now.

And the John Bell Jr. visitation this was kind of like this was when she was just like civil war like this was when she had

it's not scary. It's more of just like

Yeah. It's more like downloads about things.

And he John Bell Jr. was very young when this was all happening, right? Like he was I think I saw he was seven years old, speaking of seven, when this was going on. Yes.

Okay.

But he was also

Wow. So she she was either pregnant or had a newborn basically,

1:14:00

right? When

when her husband was killed or died.

Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know how many family members were there.

I know that there were at least like in the beginning of the story it was Betsy. So it was Lucy the wife.

Mhm.

Betsy or Elizabeth. And then I knew of at least two sons.

Yeah. But so now maybe there's a third.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, I'm not sure.

So I think that it was this youngest son who ends up working with the author who creates this sort of account. Yeah. Ingram. Yeah.

Who then sort of like puts it all together, documents it even though by the time that had come out there were no living family members.

Yeah. And that was also part of like the people were like how could none of this can be verified.

Even there was like a bell manuscript that apparently like he used to write a lot of the story and then like the bell manuscript is like nowhere in existence. Like no one knows where it is. How convenient.

How [laughter] convenient.

I do think that it's interesting that

1:15:00

like the energy switch switches to this more like prophetic energy

and like the hauntings the violence is done.

Truly. Yeah. Violence is over.

Huh.

Once the men die.

Once the men die. [clears throat] Once the men are gone.

I mean, yeah. Justice for the bell witch,

right?

Truly. Which is like kind of where my instinct was going with it cuz it felt like she was just getting a bad rep, but I love that the stars back it up. So cool.

I [laughter] was not expecting it to be just like such a

We knew it would be cool.

Yeah. But like first Yeah. It feels shocking.

Yeah. How am I?

How did when when you Was this episode seven?

Mhm.

Seven days.

Oh my Oh my god.

Just wait. I'm curious what day that came out. October 8th, 2017.

So, here we are. What day is it?

October 3rd.

Very close to

Interesting.

Yeah.

Huh.

Huh. Well, now we want to know what

1:16:00

everyone else thinks of the Bell Witch case. What do you like? Who who do you think she is and what's happening? Tell us.

Tell us.

And then

or she could come and tell us, too.

Oh, yeah. If you hear disembodied voice tell you their story, please report back.

She'll be like, I'm I'm your best friend, [ __ ]

Well, also we also are famously haunted and people catch EVPs. Like, I'm very curious if anyone hears anything throughout this episode. Did she visit us? And we just didn't know it. And she was like chiming in in the microphone.

Oh. Are you famously haunted?

Yeah. We can't control it [laughter] obviously.

We cannot.

We learn about it after the fact most of the time with emails flooding in and Did you hear that? And like luckily we

when we're recording we are unaware most of the time.

I think I'm staying at a haunted hotel.

I I think it's like a famous haunted. I was like I was booking it and I was like I think this might be one of them but like this is

Where are you staying?

In Boston but I'm not going to look at it until after I check in. Okay. Yeah. Okay. But I had to change rooms last night. [gasps]

What happened? Well, my bed was really uncomfortable, but

1:17:00

but like what else happened?

Okay. [laughter] It just the vibes were really bad. The vibes were really really bad in the room. Like I couldn't be there. So, I changed at midnight.

That's a hard thing with hotels though, too, because so many people come and go in hotels that even if it's not known to be haunted, you never know what energy has like been cycling through.

I know.

What's the name of the hotel?

The Dagy.

I don't know.

But it's it's recent recently renamed that.

Oh, okay. And you also looking I'm not but you're also very sensitive and I feel like you pick up on energy so but your new room is fine.

It has it's much better. It's also like right next to the elevator so I'm just like the one I was in before was the last room in the in a very long hallway. So I was just like this is like too too far too tucked away. Too tucked away. I feel like after becoming a mother, my sensitivity has increased in that realm a lot more

because I've always been a witch. I've always been like spooky.

Yes.

But I know people who would come into

1:18:00

rooms, go into hotels and be like, I have to switch rooms. This is my first time switching a room because of the vibe. And I do think

Well, I'm sorry that happened, but I also love that for you.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] It makes sense for like this time of year and being where you are too for that to happen.

But we'll we'll have to report back on what the hauntings of this hotel are after you leave. [laughter]

Yes.

Yeah.

We'll do some research.

Yes. Yes. Yes. We'll do some research. But I was like with me and my research like let's not even go there until

What a spooky trip you're having.

It's Yeah. But of course.

Well, okay. So last year we had you share a little bit about Karan and I's personal charts and like the whole year of 2025 like looking at what it astrologically said and so we wanted to have you do that again but we're going to put it on our Patreon but we wanted to tease so like what is 2026 big picture looking like for people and then if you guys want the rest of the inside scoop join us on Patreon. 2026 2025 and 2026 are considered like really

1:19:00

wild astrology years and 2025 and 2026 is when we start to like this is the story that it's sort of in a similar way that we were talking about with like stories building the story that's building in 2025 is going to be reaching its peak in 2026 because

which feels not great. [laughter]

Yeah. Or maybe we need it.

Yeah, that's true,

right? Like that's I do think that's true.

Yeah,

we have a lot of planets at 29° that anoretic degree, these outer planets.

Yeah.

Moving shifting sort of from their final stories into that zero degree point. Saturn and Neptune are going to be coming together for the first time in a very long time in Aries. like centuries in Aries,

but for the first time in any sign since the late 80s,

specifically with the fall of the Berlin Wall.

So, there is definitely like a big

1:20:00

radical pivot.

Something's going to like

something's happening.

It's like a turning point.

It's a turning point.

Yeah. I hope it's a it's a turning point and not just a change.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's going to be

okay. I mean, but like you know, Neptune is where it was the last time during the Civil War. Pluto is where it was the last time during the American Revolution, French Revolution.

I mean, there's

a breaking point,

which is interesting because I feel like we always say history repeats itself and the stars kind of say the same thing.

Yes.

Yes. So, I think that, you know, for for all of us, there's going to be this there's going to be a lot of intensity. There's going to be a lot of energy. It's going to be important to find grounding, but also a lot of the energy wants us to find passion.

It's it's also a really like this year 2025 is more about like finding your grounding.

And so in our final months of this year,

1:21:00

you know, find your anchoring, find your grounding, know who is part of your team. Yeah. you know, figure out like how you can find your own sort of systems to cope and navigate and and feel prepared

because then we're off to the races in 2026. Like we all have to like buck up.

Yeah.

And

Wow.

Yeah. So, what's one word that you would use to describe what 2026 is going to be?

Loud.

Oh. All right. Now, if you want the rest of what's happening in 2026, we'll see you on Patreon. And uh Alisa, will you tell everyone where to find you?

Yes, you can find me everywhere, Alisa Kelly, and at my podcast, which comes out every Monday and every Wednesday, which is called Horoscope Weekly.

Thanks all for joining us. Thank you, Alisa.

Thank you.

Thank you. And we will see you on the other side.

Very spooky.