Haunted Theatre & The Ghost of America’s First Self-Made Female Millionaire | Black History (Ep 361)

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She didn't just build a theater, she built a sanctuary. A place where black artistry, ambition, and excellence were allowed to exist loudly. So, the staff here always remembers to leave the ghost light on. from Adam CJ Walker. Yeah.

Very spooky.

Hey. Hey. [laughter] This is two girls, one ghost.

Two girls, one ghost. And I like basketball now.

Wow. Oh, because you went to She goes to one Celtics game. She likes basketball.

And now I'm a Celtics fan. I like a couple weeks ago I said that the Bruins were the one Boston team that I could support. Yeah. But I realized that my family wasn't a big basketball family

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either. And like we went to Nets games growing up, but I don't have

Nets. Who are the Nets?

The Nets. New York Nets. There's New York Nets and New York Knicks.

Sorry to the Nets. I didn't know you existed. [laughter] Never heard about you.

Um,

that's not saying much as if I'm a huge

You're a huge basketball guy.

But so yeah, I'm really leaning into my Boston and

going to the squeaky squeakers not bother you. That's what I that's what drives me insane at basketball games. The like constant squeaking.

I feel like it's loud enough in the live arena. Yeah,

I do hate basketball sneakers personally. Like

the look of them.

The one year that I played basketball, they're so uncomfortable.

Yeah, they look they're like clunky.

Yeah.

And I also broke my thumb playing basketball.

But now you're the Celtics number one fan.

I'm number one.

Number one. She knows everyone's names. All the stats.

I'm your Woo girl. [laughter] I know nothing except for actually now I

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know a couple of the players because people who played last night.

Oh, I thought you meant like personally. Not yet. Damn.

Stay tuned. Not yet.

She goes to one game. She's dating four of [laughter] the players on the team.

Had they Well, you said a few.

A lot to juggle. [laughter]

You said a few.

I know know some of them. Eagles. I'm dating four. Spread the rumor. Take to Reddit. [laughter] Sabrina's dating four Celtics players.

Which ones?

I'm not. But hi, I'm Sabrina. That's Karen.

Hi. And this is an episode that we following last week's we are celebrating another episode for Black History Month.

And I'm so excited about this episode because this woman and the haunting we're going to talk about is so inspiring and so badass.

Last week was not uplifting.

Uplifting. unfor I mean obviously it's like drenched in racism and sadness but her story and the perseverance is just so absolutely incredible. If I could tattoo every person who has inspired me

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on my body like I would include her.

Yeah, that's actually a really cool tattoo sleeve idea. Sabrina also has a tattoo sleeve. [laughter]

You're on your way. You have a few

actually. Okay, before I get into this badass, inspiring haunting and story, let's discuss some business real quick.

clearing up subscription confusion

Okay,

some of y'all are like, "Oh my god, you're grabbing money and everything's behind a payw wall." No, nothing has changed.

Oh, you guys are saying that about us?

Yeah, people say that about us.

Well, stop.

Well, stop it. Stop it. We'll punish you. We'll sp your little booties.

Yeah.

Um,

turn around

with our unmanicured nails.

Say yes, mommy. [laughter] So, yes, mommy. Give you a little tickle. Spiders crawling up. [laughter] Spiders crawling up.

How could you be mad at this cutie?

No, but I did want to clarify. We have added new subscriptions. So, like Apple Plus subscription where you can get episodes one week early and add free and

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then the bonus episode that has always existed behind a payw wall on Patreon.

Yeah, maybe you just didn't pay attention to Patreon and that's okay, but the bonuses have existed for a few years only there. And also, let me just be very clear to you. We have over 104 free episodes produced for you every single year over.

Yeah, I understand that it's confusing because it's like suddenly you get your like podcast feed is showing that there's like an episode behind a payw wall.

Your schedule hasn't changed at all. It's just now you're seeing something that you didn't know maybe existed before that always did,

but it was on Patreon, but now we're giving you access.

Exactly.

On a different platform.

Yeah. Nothing's changed. You're not forced to pay any extra money.

No,

you just got to wait a week,

which you already were doing.

And now you know you are, which is what's bothering you. So, if you just pay a few dollars a month, [laughter]

your bothers could go away.

Yeah. And then on Patreon, we have so many bonuses and and this is part of running a business is you have to make money to operate a business. But we make

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it worth your time. And like on Patreon, we have book clubs, we have campfire stories, like lots of interaction. I'm going to toot our own horn cuz we had a meeting with someone who

did an audit of our Patreon.

Yes. Who like does a lot of Patreon memberships [clears throat]

and is an expert there. And they were they were a gasast when they saw how many perks we had. They were like, "This is they were concerned for us."

They're like, "How do you do all of this?"

And we were like, "Oh, we didn't know that that was a lot."

Yeah.

So, you're welcome. [laughter]

The experts say it's great. But the the point is that you don't have to pay.

Sorry,

what?

I spoke out loud.

What did you think about?

I need to read the book club book that's in [laughter] a couple days.

It's literally in two days.

Yeah. Well,

it's on um Spotify.

I already bought it on Audible.

It's free on Spotify.

Okay.

But it's good. As context, we're talking about we book book club on Patreon.

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And this is the January book a book. So, at this point when this episode comes out, it will have passed, but you can rewatch it. Um, and then there will be a new book club book that we picked that we will be discussing in March. But we read

we Used to Live Here for the January book club, and I learned Morse code for this because between every chapter, there's like secret messages in Morse code.

Oh, really?

Yeah. And I literally have a pen on my on my book and I've been decoding.

Mhm.

Wa. So cool.

It's very fun. which okay, not to get on

abandoned house & Corinne's ghosts

a side tangent before we like actually jump into the episode. I know it's like we try to keep it brief in the in the top, but not today.

Not today.

Um, have you been on the side of TikTok where there's this like one abandoned boarded up house that is I guess for sale, but every single night someone and they're like videotaping it every night for like months. Someone is like flashing with the different like porch lights and stuff. SOS.

I'm not there. And people are like calling the police and the police are

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like, "It's boarded up. It's fine. It's empty." And then other people are like, "No, I think like people are being like trafficked

or

and it's this like big drama where it's like the it's not being investigated properly.

Where is this?" And yet there's a

let's show up there.

Yeah. I don't remember off the top of my head, [laughter] but it's like one of those things where it's just the frustration of like it not being actually

investigated

truly looked into and investigated fully

when it's it seems like there's someone

kept in this house that for weeks is trying to send out a message and then it's like now it's on the internet. How long is the delay between like maybe whoever is causing the danger to the people in that house discovering

that it's on the internet

that it's on the internet? Let's hope it's just a paranormal thing.

I sure hope so.

Damn. Okay. Well,

I don't know.

That's sad. [laughter]

Sorry. Oh, Morse code. Yeah. Someone's being kept in an abandoned house and no one's helping.

Um I really don't know how to transition from that to this. But so we're just

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going to say, "Hey, now it's time for the ghost story." [laughter]

All right, everyone forget what Karen just told you.

Well, there is a a small ghost. Oh, never mind.

What? You have a ghost story?

Sort of.

What? My mom was hearing voices last night when she was staying here.

What kind of voices?

Well, it was after she's like she's like you she's constantly being like you have to cleanse your house. Like it is

Yeah.

So bad here. [laughter]

Like whenever we can open the windows in the spring, we'll do it,

but it [snorts] was I told Sabrina this earlier. I won't go into details. I had a terrible nightmare.

Mhm.

And in the night what also was scary in the nightmare is I was in my own body. So it wasn't like I was like seeing myself normally like I was I was in the same view that I am in my body now. Oh, that's how all my dreams are.

Oh, really?

You like see yourself from a POV, like an aerial perspective. Oh, interesting.

Those ones I feel like I'm controlling. Like I'm in charge of the dream.

Yeah.

And my little avatar self. [laughter] But in this one, I [clears throat] was like fully like I was in my own body.

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But essentially like the gist of the dream was I thought I was having a panic attack, ended up like seizing and then suddenly being able to see all the spirits of my house and they were warning me that something was coming for me and was going to try to attack and they were going to try their best to protect me, but they didn't know if they could. And I woke up because Noah at that moment had also woken up like in the height of my like scared dream and he's like screaming

which is this is the second time you guys have had

this is like the third time

a shared experience with dreams like he's almost picking up on your nightmare.

Yeah. Like my nightmare and then he's terrified. So I go in tend to Noah an hour later he's up again in his crib. So my parents were here and I go in cuz my mom's like if you need help like let me know. So I go in. I was like, "Mom, can you go in this time?"

I'm scared.

He put himself back to sleep in the moment that I was asking my mom to go help. So then I go back to bed and my mom says like within that like next like 20, 30 minutes, she was hearing a woman speaking here and there like intermittently.

I mean, I think you need to listen to

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your mother. We need to cleanse your house.

I know, but it's too cold. I can't open the windows.

You could do it for like 20 minutes.

Yeah. I mean

the spirits of the house are like literally warned me something is saying

yeah it was crazy too because it was like I was seeing everyone for it was like that scene in ghosts where it's like Sam first sees all the ghosts and they're all like taken back just as much that like

she can see them and it was totally like that like I was seeing all these different people there's a couple a man and a woman

don't you wish it was like moments like this that you were a really good drawer

and you could just sketch them all so you remember their

you could like videotape your dreams so you could rewatch them like a home Black Mirror.

Um, okay. Well, I don't Stay tuned on what's coming for

Korean. Now, how do we transition from this one?

All right. Well, today, like we said, we

introduction to the legacy & hauntings

are talking about an inspiring story to honor Black History Month. And I'm going to just paint a picture for you to get us into it. It is late. As patrons pour out of the doors of the Madame Walker

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Theater, staff can't help but listen in on conversations catching snippets of praise for the evening's performance. The opera was brilliant. The performance is heart-wrenching. One patron even gives their rendition of the closing ballad. It's shrill, but the staff loves how the performance has left an impact on all those who came to watch it. The last of the theatergoers exit the building and staff members lock the main doors. They assist with the departure of the cast and crew, and soon the theater is empty. It's dark, quiet, the ghost of the evening's activity still palpable on the walls. The staff does their final check on the building, getting ready to head home themselves. But there's one task left, the most important of all, to turn on the ghost light. See, while they may be leaving the theater for the night, locking up an empty building, they know it is never really truly empty. For when night falls upon this building, when the patrons, the cast,

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and the crew depart into the dark, something remains inside. Something or someone not of flesh and bone, but of spirit, strong and resilient. Madame CJ Walker, the woman for which the building was built by and is named after. Her spirit walks the halls of the theater at all hours of the day and night. And while her hauntings have touched many, sometimes literally. Wow. It's her story that truly touches the world. She didn't just build a theater, she built a sanctuary. A place where black artistry, ambition, and excellence were allowed to exist loudly. Madame CJ Walker fought to create in a world that tried to silence her. So this is her story and it is utterly inspiring. So like we said in honor of Black History Month, we are exploring the haunted Madame Walker Theater in Indianapolis, Indiana, and telling the

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story of Madame CJ Walker, who is the first female self-made millionaire in the United States.

Wow.

Yeah. Mind-blowing. Yeah, that's incredible.

As you will hear, her story is so powerful. She is and was so powerful that she is truly still with us both literally and figuratively because her spirit has been seen. We'll start with a little introduction to the theater and then I'm going to give you a whole her whole story because it's just incredible.

Amazing.

So, the like how do you get the title Madame?

She picked it.

Oh, so we could be Madames.

We we could change our names to Madame.

I don't have dresses that fit. Madame.

Madame. I feel like

these outfits don't give Madame. They give uh the same sweatshirt every [laughter] single recording. And I like it's so ridiculous cuz it's so cold in here. So, we just have to. But like sometimes I do put in effort and like wear normal tops and like change the top I have underneath this. But you would never know because it's cold. So, I'm going to put on my sweatshirt.

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Yep.

Yeah.

Madame. Madame. Let's just get wor.

Okay.

That's how we That's how we become Madame's. All right. The Walker Theater

Madam Walker Theatre

is now known as the Madame Walker Legacy Center. It was built in 1927 based on plans that Madame CJ Walker had created. She was an incredible and inspiring black woman. And this was built in downtown Indianapolis, Indiana. It is one of the few remaining African art deco buildings in the entire United States and was designated a national historic landmark in 1991. Since its opening in 1927, it has been an integral part of the Indianapolis community and the stage has seen the likes of Natkin Cole, Ella Fitzgerald, and so many jazz greats.

Dang.

Yeah, that is something if you had a time machine to go back and see.

I know.

Those people singing live.

I can't even imagine like you'd feel

like even just Yeah. Like my body's like

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vibrating like the richness of their voices. And this building continues to be a beacon of inspiration, progress, and artistic excellence, and is the last surviving iconic building on Indiana Avenue. So, the center is dedicated to preserving the history of the building, championing the artistry, and the legacy of Madame CJ Walker,

which is why we are going to talk all about her because I too am like, let's make sure we never forget this woman. Amazing.

The first female self-made millionaire was a black woman.

Unfortunately, I'm included in here. Probably the majority of listeners, this is going to be the first time they ever heard about it.

100%.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Where is this in history class?

Right. This is why I like to think of Two Girls One Ghost a little bit of like a history class.

It is. We do deep dives. We're not always perfect, but we really try to get the whole story. Okay. As I've said a million times and will continue to say a million times in this episode, she's a

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goddamn legend. All right. [laughter]

Madam,

that's the tattoo, her face, and then godamn

goddamn legend. [laughter]

Madam C.J. Walker - beginnings

Madame CJ Walker was born named Sarah Breedlove on December 23rd, 1867 on a Delta, Louisiana plantation. Her parents' names were Owen and Manurva Breedlove and Sarah was one of six children and Sarah was the youngest and she was the first and only child in the family born into freedom [sighs]

because the Emancipation Proclamation was issued by President Lincoln in 1863 and Sarah was born in 1867. [snorts]

Yeah.

Yeah. So prior to her birth, her parents and older siblings were enslaved by a man named Robert W. Bernie on his Madison Parish plantation. After the Civil War, Sarah's parents worked as sharecroers. And then Sarah was born in 1867. So yes,

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although she was born into freedom in quotes, like the idea of that was true, she was still born into a world very, very deeply shaped by slavery

and deeply rooted in racism. And just because the Emancipation Proclamation existed did not mean for a lot of people that they were free.

No. And and her parents still worked as as uh sharecroers on a plantation.

They were not financially independent in any way.

No.

Yeah. Society was still deeply oppressive. Her family, like I said, was still working and living on a plantation where they had been previously enslaved. They didn't own property, didn't have economic independence. So family was and their community was the most important part of their lives. Unfortunately, when Sarah was only six years old, her mother Manurva died of chalera in 1872. Did I say it right?

Yeah,

I always say it wrong, but I I did it right.

I think sometimes you say chera.

Yeah, right. I don't know. You said it right.

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Cuz you always correct me, so I [laughter] always wait. It's always that word.

You like stop and wait for me to do it. Kera.

Yeah, you did it.

Yay. So her mother sadly died when Sarah was just 6 years old. Her father remarried but died one year later in 1873. So by the age of seven, Sarah Breedlove was an orphan.

Oh my gosh.

7 years old. Did she get to stay with her siblings?

She did move to Mississippi and live with her older sister and her brother-in-law, but unfortunately her brother-in-law was an abusive prick.

Yeah. So she's 7 years old. She's living with her sister and her brother-in-law. She begins working as a domestic servant. She's a child. She had very little to no formal schooling. I think she said that she had in total like three months of formal schooling.

Wow.

But she would take literacy lessons at the church that she attended regularly during earlier years. So, like I said, her time with her sister and brother-in-law was rough because her brother-in-law was abusive. And so Sarah knew she had to get out of the situation. She's around like 13, 14 at this time. And she knew that the only

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real way out was getting married. So at 14 years old in 1882, Sarah married a woman married a man named

Oh she I was like yes.

No, but she made it. She's safe.

So in 1882 when Sarah was only 14 years old, she married a man named Moses McWills whose age is never really documented, but I imagine he's much older. There's not much about their relationship together. They did have a daughter who they named Ila, who we'll talk about later in the story,

but she goes by Ala.

Yeah. A apostrophe Ila.

It's a beautiful name. In 1887, so 5 years after getting married, Sarah's husband Moses died. So she's now 19 years old, a widow and a single mother to a daughter who's 2 years old.

My god, what a tough life.

Yeah. So, as you can see, like literally my next sentence is like her upbringing was difficult and full of adversity. She was forced to be resilient, to move, to

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start over, to persevere because she had no choice but to

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Madam C.J. Walker - beginnings cont'd

When her first husband died, she moved to St. Louis, Missouri, where all four of her brothers worked as barbers. She found a job as a lawn dress and a cook and joined the African Methodist Episcopal Church. And this is like a very transformative phase of her life because it's here that she finds a community with other black men and women. She's exposed to like a new way of life

and new way of thinking. It's this time where a fire was lit under her where she was like, I deserve more and I can achieve more. I can do more. I just have

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to work my ass off for it.

Yeah. which like she's a child too. Yes. A young child. Like that's it takes a lot.

A lot. And she was really really determined to build a better life for her daughter.

She worked for as little as $1.50 per day, but she did save enough money to send her daughter Leila Ala to get an education in the city's public schools. She then married a man named John Davis. Again, I couldn't find much on this relationship, but the men in the story are not the important ones. She escape. Yeah. Like literally the only sentence was got married to this man named John John Davis, but it was troubled. They later divorced. So I don't know the full details, but now it's the early 1900s. Sarah's a single mother, still struggling financially, working hard, laborious jobs, long hours,

and this stress and strain was manifesting physically. She was losing hair.

Yeah. and she was having a lot of scalp issues,

which was a common for a lot of these

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people who were working really hard, didn't have access to the best clean or products,

because humans are not meant to be like this.

No, [sighs]

we're supposed to frolic in meadows.

We're supposed to share our eggs with our neighbors,

live in peace.

She um found a product called the great wonderful hair grower and she started using it. And this is by a company called Porro System or Bip by Porro. And this woman who created it is an African-American businesswoman named Annie Turbo Malone who she also is an inspiring woman in her own right. She ended up creating financial independence for thousands of women including Sarah Breedlove. So Sarah,

oh my gosh,

starts using this product.

So she was like kind of like the first MLM but without being an MLM.

Totally.

Yeah.

Totally. where it's like you bring bring everyone on to sell your products.

You get a a pink car at the end.

It kind of is. Yeah, it kind of is like that. It was a good But it was like a good

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But a good one.

A good one.

Yes.

So Sarah finds this product. She starts using it for her own hair

and she also joins Malone's sales team. So she starts going door to door selling this product.

She learned sales techniques, marketing strategies. She started to build financial independence through this job. And one year later in 1905, Sarah moved to Denver, Colorado, where she met and married an ad man, an advertising man named Charles Joseph Walker. And it's at this time when she marries Charles Joseph CJ Walker, that she changed her name to Madame CJ Walker.

So, she's still working that job.

Yes. But she marries Charles Joseph and she's continually trying to like grow her hair back. So she starts to experiment with her own formula. She has Annie.

So she was selling a product that she wasn't actually sure.

No, it worked.

Totally worked.

It did. There is a little bit of drama here.

Okay,

we'll get we'll get there in a second.

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Oh, no.

But so she's basically experimenting with a similar formula to the great wonderful hair grower that Annie Malone. She's taking the Krabby Patty recipe

and she's adding a little extra. Got it. And then she found something that worked. She married an advertising guy. She had learned a lot from her time working for Annie Malone.

Yeah.

And Sarah or I guess now at this point, Madame CJ Walker has an idea.

Wait, but she's living in a different state at this point, right?

But so these companies are doing sales all over the country.

Oh, okay. So it wasn't just like specific to like a region, like a a small region. These are like national

how are they gonna know what she does? Got it.

Yeah. So, her idea is to start her own hairline. So, now her and her husband become a power couple. Madame Walker took all of her knowledge from her time working with Annie Malone and the desire

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to create more hair treatments combined with her husband's marketing and advertising expertise and she launches her own line of hair products and straighteners for African-Amean women. And it is called, keep in mind the product, Annie Malone's product is called the great wonderful hair grower. Madame Walker's is called Madame Walker's Wonderful Hair Grower.

Oh, that's a little too close.

I did have to look it up because in most stories they no one mentions this, but I'm like Annie Malone must have been pissed,

right?

So, yes, it did cause some drama. Malone did accuse Walker of stealing her formula and her business model, but yes, there was drama. But the beautiful part of the story is that both businesses did thrive.

Okay.

So if if one didn't, maybe I would feel differently, but both companies did become that.

It's like she's being blatant about

kind of ripping off the other company, but at the same time, I don't entirely blame her for her own formula cuz like look at half the products out there.

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Most of their ingredients are going to be the same. It's just about like adding an extra this or that or like the the amounts. Yeah,

but it's not like there's some magical new concoction of entirely different ingredients that do the same thing. Like all the products are going to be similar.

Yeah. I think it was especially spicy tea because at this time there are probably only two black women in this business.

Yeah. And she definitely didn't sign that non-compete.

No. [clears throat] No. So, yes, there was definitely real competition between the two. But I I think what is beautiful about this is that two black women were able to build successful business empires in a racist maledominated business world.

And they both employed thousands of black men and women and created this like whole new avenue of professionalism that didn't exist before.

And what set Madame CJ Walker apart was how she built and scaled her business. with the help of her husband in

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advertising. He helped establish a mail order business as well. He also helped her with all the marketing and stuff and her products promoted health and were designed specifically for black hair and scalp health. So her first product, Madame Walker's Wonderful Hair Grower, was a scalp ointment that you were supposed to use alongside other products. So she built like a whole self-care regimen.

Well, and also like depending on your hair type and everything, like there's so many different variations,

right? There's no oneizefits-all. No, it is so hard to find like the right thing for your own head and hair.

And I think that was like the one thing that really set her apart is that she wasn't just trying to sell one product. She was trying to sell like education too of like how to take care of your hair, right?

And this is an entire regimen. This isn't just like one thing. It's like use this with this and this or depending on your issue, use this with this instead.

Yeah.

So Madame Walker is selling a whole regimen and she is selling her products door to door. She began to train other black women to sell for her and created

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like this army called the Walker agents. That's what they were called.

They would go door to door.

That sounds kind of scary.

I know. The Walker agents, but it also has like a like sophistic madame sophistication to it. You know,

it feels very like Men in Black to me where it's like someone's just like coming out like I picture them all like in suits and being like,

"What do you know?" [laughter] Knock knock. [gasps]

Well, picture it like that. agents.

These are beautiful black women who are being empowered for the first time to have their

You could sell me anything

and Madame Walker trained them. So she has like these sessions where she trains them not just on how to be saleswoman and go door to door, but she trains them on business men like matters on sales bookkeeping. Like she is providing a whole education.

It's like business

that never existed especially for women.

I love that. Yeah. So it's like if they Yeah. setting them up to go out on their own if they ever

want to start their own business.

Totally. She supports it. Um

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that's how you make good friends.

She also taught them grooming and hygiene techniques so that they could sell those to their potential

patrons. And by the 1910s, there were thousands of Walker agents operating across the US, the Caribbean, and Central America. She opened beauty schools where women could become certified beautificulturists. She truly she's expanding. She's expanding and she's building an entire career path for black women.

Oh my god.

Yeah.

All while being a mom.

All while being a mom. Yeah. She also was a branding genius. She was one of the first women just generally like first women first people to put her own face on her products.

She also was one of the first people to use before and after photos as like proof of it working.

She also ran newspaper ads to target potential customers. People who are in like marketing,

like business marketing degrees, do you learn about her?

I doubt it.

This feels so important to like the core of understanding.

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Do marketing people do like history of marketing or do they just focus on how to market today?

Good question. I don't know. I never took a class.

Me neither. Yeah. But one of the articles that I found was like she basically was using modern-day influencer techniques but in the 1910s.

That's amazing. like a whole decade or a whole century before that I even existed.

And there was just so much emphasis on like beauty standards and looks back then too. Not that there's not today, but like

in a different way. Yeah.

Yeah. In 1910, Madame Walker and her husband got a divorce, but she kept the name Madame Walker, especially now that's like her whole business.

And she continued to build her empire. After the divorce, she relocated to Indianapolis, Indiana, and built a factory for her company. And it wasn't just a random, "Oh, Indianapolis sounds great." No, this area, especially Indiana Avenue in Indianapolis, was becoming this really important black

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business and cultural centers, like one of the most important in the Midwest.

There were various blackowned companies laying roots here, specifically on Indiana Avenue. And so it's here that Madame Walker moved her company headquarters because she saw an opportunity, but she also saw responsibility. And this is what I love about her. She is not selfish. She's not like there's only room for one of us here. She is constantly paving paths that other people can walk alongside her.

Yeah. Good in heart.

Great in heart.

She continued to build and advocate for black women's economic independence. And as her wealth increased, so too did her philanthropic and political outreach. Her company was never just about selling products. It was about building something bigger for black women and the black community. So, it's here while in Indiana that Madame Walker began to give back. She funded black institutions, supported black newspapers, donated to schools, churches, civil rights

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organizations, and so much more. She joined the Bethl AM church, donated $1,000 to the new Senate AV YMCA. She also decided around this time that she wanted to build something bigger on Indiana Avenue, a place that could function as a headquarters, not just for her company, but for the black community in general.

Dang. This is very I mean, obviously she came before these people, but it's reminded me so much of like the work Prince did of what like Dolly Parton does where it's just like it's for the good of everyone else. It's not for like the public

perception of who she is. It's just like how much can I do to better everyone else in my community and like share what I have to make everyone else feel better and do better

and have better opportunities.

I wish every person could just be a fraction of her and have that mentality

all while looking great.

Yeah. So, she is looking around and she does travel a lot. She's doing a lot of she like starts speaking on panels and

34:00

she gets involved in politics. She like she goes back and forth between Harlem. She loves New York and Indiana.

She's traveling for work. But she sees Indiana Avenue and she's like I feel like there needs to be a space where people can come together for everything, for the arts, for meeting, for business, and just community in general. And it's also around this time in 1914, she visited what was called the ISIS Theater in downtown Indiana. And it was a usual stop. She loved going to see the cinema and the movies. And this one day she goes, she goes up to get a ticket. And the man who's working there, this like white man, goes, "Oh, the prices changed for black people. You now have to pay 25 cents." But the price didn't change for whites. According to legend, that moment she refused to pay and she went back to her office and had her attorney sue the ISIS theater and then she decided, "Fuck it. I'm going to create a theater of my

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own." [sighs] yes.

Yeah.

I love it cuz it's like a little bit done in in spite, but like

it's like because I can.

Because I can, but then it also just like benefits everyone else in the end.

Exactly. Yeah. [laughter] Totally. So, yeah. Yeah. So, as legend goes, on this day when the price changed for blacks, Madame Walker decided that her community center that she was imagining and trying to build in Indiana on Indiana Avenue would have its own movie house. Throughout the next few years, Madame Walker began to acquire land along Indiana Avenue with the intention of building a massive multi-purpose complex. And as she's gathering this land and making plans for this building, she's splitting her time between Indiana and New York. and she builds a stunning estate in Irvington, New York. It's called Villa Laro and it is it's still standing today. It is the most beautiful. Look at this place. It feels Gatsby. Look at this picture.

This is like a place that people get married at.

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Oh, it's stunning. And it's truly a physical symbol of everything she accomplished. like she is the face of a rags to rich's story where she was born on a plantation where her parents had previously been enslaved.

Yeah.

Into a world that and like her whole life even today we live in a very like racist society

and she was facing it in like the the worst of it, you know. So I think it's absolutely incredible that this villa exists and that she was able to build it for herself.

She would host people here. She would spread her wealth and knowledge through the black community. And by 1918, Madame Walker was at the center of black cultural and political life. And she's continuing with her plans to build this cultural center in Indiana. But unfortunately, she never sees it come to fruition in life because on May 25th, 1919, Madame CJ Walker died at the age of 51 due to kidney failure and complications from high blood pressure. She died in her

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home in New York in Villa Laro. And you would think perhaps her spirit lingers at the villa. But no, because Madame Walker had a dream and even though she never saw it come true in her life, she made sure it came forth and she oversaw its completion in her afterlife.

Wow. Damn. This girl needs to rest. Like [laughter] she deserves it. But she

I do workaholic.

She she's still very much a workaholic and that is ingrained in her spirit. But she very much enjoys, and I think this is the beauty of it, is yes, she worked her ass off, but she enjoyed what she did.

Yeah.

And I think even now in the afterlife, she seems to be enjoying all that she built.

Yeah. So,

and getting to witness other people like build their dreams.

She loves

Yeah.

to oversee and watch other people excel. for her.

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38:00

Skiims.

I've been seeing a lot of people try Skiims online and just like all these videos and stuff and finally you and I did order some. I put them on. These are so stretchy, so comfortable, also seamless. I just shopped the fits everybody collection and I bought like every type of underwear they have, but I love their thongs and their boy shorts. It fits your body and moves with your body. It feels like magic.

It does.

They're so comfortable. You forget that you're wearing them. Especially their bralettes.

Yeah. And also, as someone who deals with some weight fluctuation, I was like, "Oh, this is the underwear that actually will like grow and shrink with you."

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the Walker Theatre is built

And the first person she oversaw and watched Excel was her daughter Ala who

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became the president of the company when Madame CJ Walker passed away. So Ala along with the company attorney and general manager Freeman B. Ransom saw to it that Madame CJ Walker's vision came to life. Together they decided to begin construction on this center that her mother had always dreamt of on a triangular shaped lot that Madame Walker had purchased not too long after the incident at the ISIS theater. Ala Walker commissioned the local architectural firm of Rubbish and Hunter or Rubish. I don't know how to say it, but I kind of like rubbish to design a 48,000 square foot building that they would name the Walker Building to honor her mother. This building still stands. It is massive. It is a block long fourstory building located at 617 Indiana Avenue. And the doors first opened in December 1927, 8 years after Madame CJ Walker

40:00

died. But this building became everything she dreamt of and more.

Like I said in the beginning of the episode, this is like one of the last African art deco buildings that still exists today.

It was built and reinforced with concrete yellow brick-faced walls and it has two main facades. It includes storefronts and then a theater with a stage, emergency exits. There's terracotta architectural details around the ground level. The decorative elements contain African, Moorish, and Egyptian motifs and geometric lines. Like, so this building kind of inspired today's shopping malls.

Oh, it's massive. It had a drugstore, a salon, a beauty school, a restaurant, professional offices, a ballroom, and a 150 seat theater.

Oh, wow.

Yeah. It's not.

In my mind, it was like just a theater.

No, it is everything.

Cuz she wanted a space where everyone could come together.

Mhm. She wanted it to be more than just a theater, more than just the headquarters for her office. She basically wanted a a place where she

41:00

could do everything she wanted to do in one place, which was help other people.

Mhm.

Have a beauty school, go to the theater, have a ball cuz she loved her little like gatherings and gallas,

socialized restaurants. Yeah. And upon opening in December of 1927, it became one of the most important black cultural and business landmarks in the Midwest. And

the Green Book & a safe place

so now, as context, 1927, Jim Crow laws are very, very entrenched in society and heavily practiced throughout the United States,

which meant segregated schools, segregated housing, segregated restaurants, theaters, hotels, hospitals, discrimination was rampant, and also so was violence against blacks.

Mhm. It's like a I can't even It's just horrible. And so Indiana, where this building is opened, had one of the largest KKK memberships in the country. So, as you can imagine, the black community here, I mean, everywhere, lived in constant state of fear, hyper

42:00

awareness, and surveillance. So, during this era, black people and travelers were often refused service at hotels, businesses, and restaurants, which meant traveling in the United States became a really dangerous thing. Man, you didn't know where you could be safe. And black success was often met with suspicion and violence. So when black people traveled the country, they had to be hyper vigilant. In 1936, Victor Hugo Green published the Green Book. It was first published in 1936. It listed businesses that would serve black travelers safely. Listed in the Green Book were many businesses along Indiana Avenue. It and the Madame CJ Walker Theater became a place of refuge and it was a place that people knew was safe when they were traveling through Indianapolis. By night, the Walker Theater glowed with jazz and laughter. There were lines literally down the block. And by day, the building buzzed with business, training, organizing. Legends of jazz and entertainment came to the Madame Walker Theater. Duke Ellington, Louis

43:00

Armstrong, Ella Fritz Gerald, like the great Nat Cole, everyone I mentioned in the beginning.

Wow. And it's also, I mean, like so devastating because these artists, everyone loved them.

They were able to perform and sell out white venues, but they were not allowed to stay at hotels by those white venues.

It's like that movie that's like all about that experience.

The Green Book.

Oh, yeah. [laughter]

The movie called Green Book.

Yeah, that one. I didn't remember the name of it, but yeah, that's it.

Yes,

that's it.

So, the Walker Theater offered something rare in segregated America. It like offered everything allin-one. I don't think there was a hotel, but it was a venue, restaurants, businesses, like everything existed there. And it stood as a physical representation of everything Madame CJ Walker believed in. That black excellence didn't need permission to be. It just needed the space. and she imagined the space and

44:00

her daughter made the space come to life. It was a major hub for black cultural and commercial life through the 1950s. But then in the 1950s, the

post-segregation shifts & restoration

buildings and surrounding neighborhoods began to shift, especially with, and this is something I learned when I was in Minnesota, like a lot of the highways were built to specifically split like segregate communities and like cut off access from black communities to like the central areas. Oh my god.

And that was what happened in Indiana, too. So, a lot of communities were literally like kicked out similar to like Lake

Laneir.

The they just wanted to build highways and things for the white community and so they would just literally uproot the black communities.

That's like I can't the amount of effort put in to just

It's horrible. Yeah. So due to this, the theater closed in the 1960s and was about to be demolished in the 1970s because it had fallen into disrepair. But then enter a nonprofit group that

45:00

literally formed to save the building in 1979. They began restoration on the building and established the Madame Walker Urban Life Center. They fought to protect the building. They were able to get it added to the National Register of Historic Places in 1980 and they reopened the building in 1984 and reopened the theater in 1988. In 1991, the building was designated as a national historic landmark and has continued to operate under the same values and wishes of Madame CJ Walker. So truly almost a century after its opening in 1927, the Madame Walker Legacy Center, as it is now called, continues to operate as a live performance venue, a community arts hub, offers cultural education, and community centered programming, and it is completely dedicated to preserving the legacy of Madame Walker.

Wow. Incredible. I'm so glad it was saved.

I know. This feels like a place that you should go on a on a school field trip.

For sure. And I looked up their um

46:00

schedule. I think when this episode comes out, there's like an opera happening.

Fancy.

Yeah. And then there's like orchestras who come in and perform.

But it seems like they're doing such a good job of upkeeping the legacy and the dream that Madame Walker wanted that she is right there watching it all happen

of course

and her spirit resides in this building.

So the ghost light is specifically for her.

For her, but there are other spirits.

Oh

the hauntings

yes. So, from the very beginning of this building being opened, I think even during construction, people have made comments about hearing and seeing things, especially when they're alone in the building. There have been reports of visitors seeing shadow people sitting in the theater seats and standing on the stage itself. There's this one story of a woman who was attending some event like a gala or something at the building and she decided to just, you know, give herself a little self-guided tour and she walked into the theater and when she's looking down over the seats, she sees two people sitting in the seats and

47:00

then she sees two people sitting on the stage and one of the women she looks at and she's like kind of taken aback because she looks so much like Madame Walker. In a blink, all four people people gone.

What kind of meeting were they having?

I don't know. Talking about the night's performance.

Yeah. Testing [clears throat] out the acoustics, making sure everything's perfect.

Right. And staff, performers, and caretakers alike all report very similar things. Footsteps and empty hallways, doors opening and closing on their own, lights turning on after hours, and the feeling of being observed. And not in a scary way, but in a like almost like authoritative like supervisor way. Mhm.

Which I love cuz she's still she's still making sure everything is done

right.

Right.

No funny business.

No funny business building.

No. And then there is a very common sighting of a woman in period clothing. She's always very well-dressed. She's seen in various spaces in the building, but most commonly in the theater and upper levels of the building. And there's no way to confirm 100% that it's

48:00

Vanam CJ Walker, but everyone thinks it is. Everyone agrees it is that she has come to watch her daughter construct and give way to the dream she had and that she loved it so much that she stayed.

I mean everything makes sense there like who she was,

how she spent her time, what motivated her, what she loved.

Who wouldn't want to stay and watch Nat King Cole perform with Ella Fitzgerald.

Oh my gosh. She loved watching the musicians perform and she also championed black businessmen and women and so I think she just continued to do so in the afterlife.

Of course. Yeah, everyone agrees that while perhaps there are multiple spirits present in the building, Madame Walker is the most prominent and she is simply guarding and overseeing the space because she cares about it deeply and is always watching. It is reported that activity increases during renovations like she's making sure everything is done properly during large events. She likes to mingle and observe

and she's just watching

socializing. She she was a networker and she now she Yep. So whether you believe

49:00

in the paranormal or not, there is no doubt that the spirit of Madame CJ Walker is very much alive and thriving in the Madame Walker Legacy Center. She is an inspiration. She has this beautiful rags to riches story and she made sure to give back to others and pave paths for others to walk alongside her. So the staff here always remembers to leave the ghost light on from Madame CJ Walker.

Madam Walker's legacy

to wrap up this episode and again emphasize just how freaking inspiring and badass Madame CJ Walker really was and is like I hope to be a fraction

Yeah.

of the type of woman that she was to give back

to support others. Yeah. She's an inspiration. At its height, Madame Walker employed 40,000 African-Amean men and women.

Wow.

She founded the National Negra Cosmetics Manufacturers Association in 1917. And as her wealth increased, so too did her philanthropic and political outreach.

50:00

She became active in the anti-ynching movement. She donated $5,000 to the NAACP's efforts. And just prior to dying of kidney failure, she revised her will and bequeathed twothirds of any future net profits to charity. 2/3.

And it all started cuz she was looking for something to help her hair health.

Mhm. I'm sure she would have found a different reason or avenue to like make all of this happen anyway, but like how incredible that it just

yeah snowballed into this huge thing where it's it wasn't just about one company. It was about very quickly became like how do I use business and networking to benefit my community.

Yeah. And to educate others. Yeah.

Yeah. She only had three months of formal education and she at the time

she learned to read in church. Yeah. At the time of her death on May 25th, 1919, her combined personal assets were valued at over $1 million, which earned her a

51:00

place in the Guinness Book of World Records as the first female self-made millionaire in the United States. Not just the first black female self-made millionaire, first female self-made millionaire generally in the United States. Gosh, Madame Walker,

a woman who was born to formerly enslaved parents on a plantation that her parents had previously been enslaved on. A woman who endured adversity, racism, and abuse, became the first self-made female millionaire in the United States. A icon. Seriously,

I don't think her hair product brand still exists, like the Madame CJ Walker brand. But there is a new beauty and hair care line called Madame by Sundial Brands,

which I think is the same one who does like shea butter,

shea moisture.

Yeah, that. So, there are 11 products that are available online in 3,000 stores nationwide and online on walmart.com.

Damn.

Her story isn't just history. It's a

52:00

reminder that we do not need to accept the limits placed on us. That we can continue to open doors. We can build our own wealth while giving back and providing opportunity for others too. She opened doors and she built something that others continue to walk into and that is powerful.

Yeah. So the last sentence I will say for this portion of her story is going to be a quote from Madame CJ Walker herself. She said, "I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the south. From there, I was promoted to the wash tub. From there, I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there, I promoted myself into the business and manufacturing hair goods and preparations. I have built my own factory on my own ground." Yeah. Incredible. It's just a wild like not only was she born into the world that she was born into, but like she also became an orphan.

I know.

Very young. And was around abusive men.

Married at 14 years old.

Like it was just like thing after thing

53:00

after thing so easily.

Yeah.

Could this have not happened for her?

She made it happen.

Yeah.

And made it happen for so many others

and set her daughter up for

Mhm.

a much better life.

Yeah.

Dang. That is a good story.

So uplifting coming off of like linear, too. Thank goodness.

I know. I was like, you know, we wanted to feature some stories for Black History Month and I there's so many houses that were on the Green Book or

Yeah. Or like there was one that I was going to do and then I took it away cuz it was like the reverse

Underground Railroad and I was like this is too depressing.

And then there's also so many plantation stories.

We got to balance it out, right?

But no, I'm so glad that I found her story and I hope it touches you. Maybe her spirit will touch you if you go to the the theater.

Goddamn badass.

Yeah.

Godamn legend. Wow. Amazing. Okay. Well,

listener story

I was like, "This happens in Indianapolis. Why don't I pull up a listener story from Indianapolis?"

Would you believe it if I told you in our entire inbox, we only have 11 emails

54:00

from Indianapolis? Or at least with the word Indianapolis?

Well, what about Indiana?

I didn't search. I was looking for Indianapolis.

All of you from Indianapolis. Where are you hiding your stories?

Yeah. I was like, I cannot believe this. This is from Morgan who lived in a haunted place in Indianapolis.

Love it. Hi ladies. I just started your podcast recently. I'm a few years behind, but so far I'm loving it. I listened to your dream episode and I have a few dreams to share with you. I lived in Indianapolis by myself for the first time ever in this little studio apartment on the south side. I always had an uneasy feeling at night. Whether it was just me overthinking the fact that I was alone or it was really something. I'm not sure. But usually on the weekends I went home to visit family and then I'd come back and my apartment would always feel like someone had lived in it while I was gone.

Oh, that's so unsettling. Like that's not just like a because you live alone. That's a

I'd also be trust scared that someone actually was breaking in because of this

55:00

next sentence.

Oh no.

It smelled so strongly of cigarettes and I don't smoke and people were not allowed to smoke inside the building.

But that is also such a ghost trope to smell like cigarettes.

True. It honestly maybe could have been some workers because there were people working on the building and it was just a weird place to begin with.

Anyways, dream number one. I'm in my bedroom. I'm awake and only able to lift my head up when this elderly lady with gray straight hair holding my mirror that I had in my room started screaming at me to look in the mirror at myself several times while pushing the mirror strongly towards me.

No, don't look in the mirror.

So, I finally got out of this sort of trance. I woke up like I was never asleep. Super creeped out and then I just hid underneath my blankets and fell asleep. The second dream I had, I was in my bedroom again and I wasn't able to get up in the dream. There was a section of blinds in my window with a space big enough for someone to peek through and this man was looking at me through the window which was directly across from my

56:00

bed. And in the dream all I could see were his eyes and the outline of his cheeks. I looked multiple times at the man and he never broke the stare. And when I did wake up, the blinds were exactly how they were in my dream, separated enough for the man to look in. I was pretty crazy about the window due to it being right where people could see in. So, I know for a fact that it was closed all the way before I went to sleep. I haven't lived there in a couple years now, and I haven't had any kind of dreams like this since. Super creepy, but the woman and the man's faces, they still stick with me. Love the podcast, Morgan. Morgan, I don't think these were dreams. I think this was paralysis

given that you couldn't move in both situations [laughter]

and also to kind of full circle here Karen your dreams are for sure messages too and hauntings and

the same as uh Morgan

Morgan

yeah you are both haunted

I like how Morgan's like oh these are my dreams so I was I was frozen in space

57:00

and I couldn't move and I felt like I was awake and I saw these weird things and then when I woke up it was exactly how it was in my dream that was sleep paralysis. That was a haunting.

You want to believe it was just dream.

You want to believe you were asleep, especially when you're alone.

Is so creepy.

Yeah. Like look, look at yourself. Look at the mirror.

Which also makes me think like she's like come into the portal. Come into this other side.

I was like, what what would Morgan have seen if she'd looked? It's almost like a dark scrying mirror. It makes me wonder like what would have been shown.

So creepy pushing her

and the strong smell of cigarettes. the window being open so that that guy peeking in was that

it does feel like there's two specific ghosts

and they're both terrifying.

I know.

I want to know where this building is and look up the history of that area.

Uhhuh.

Also, I'm sure other people in that building was it in the south.

South side.

Yeah,

on the south side. Yeah. And that it was a weird building. Strange building to begin with. So much history in that

58:00

place, too. Yeah. I'm so curious. You're haunted.

The guy looking in the window reminds me a little bit of um Gerald's game like that.

Oh, I was thinking Golden State Killer.

Oh, [laughter] I was just thinking like in Gerald's game, she doesn't believe that that guy is real. She thinks that she's like seeing a ghost,

but someone was actually entering. Not to not to spoil a book that's been out for a long time or a movie that's been out for a few years, but

well, if you have any hauntings from Indianapolis, if you have any paranormal stories at all, if you just feel super freaking inspired by Madame CJ Walker and her story, let us know. You can email us at two girls oneodcast@gmail.com. You can also add your thoughts in the comments if you're watching on YouTube or on Spotify. Let us know what you think. We care. We care about your thoughts and you can join us on Patreon. Like we said in the beginning, nothing has changed for the usual things that you listen to, [laughter] but you can get bonus content. You can get episodes one week early and ad free

59:00

on Patreon and there's book club and so many other things if you so desire.

Shout out to Jamie Ryan and to Emma who help us and are on our team. Thank you for producing the podcast and hoping it exists.

Yes. And thank you to all of you listeners who are really the only reason this exists.

We love you all so much

and we will see you on the other side.

Very spooky.