Haunted with Paranormal Investigators & Haunted Antiquities Collectors Greg & Dana Newkirk

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very spooky you guys I even know how to describe the excitement that we have we just ended our video recording with the incredible Greg and Dana newerk and oh my gosh are we so excited for you to listen to this episode we've referenced them countless number of times we included them as part of our fall tour we are I think we can say say obsessed with Greg and Dana newerk they are paranormal investigators they are collectors and curators of haunted object objects and historical

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Antiquities relating to the maob and the Paranormal and they are just they're just like the coolest people we've ever met they're so cool they also joined us on our very first paranormal investigation at The Conjuring house so if you did see us on tour you heard us reference them so many times you've heard us cover the crying Boy painting you've heard us cover the cron of cat skills Billy the idol these are all objects that Greg and Dana have encountered or possess or possessed I found myself the entire episode like looking at them and being like how do I either spend a day being them or have them adopt me I know it's funny because we've spent time with them we feel like we're on a friend level but I feel like the Friendship is unequal still because we're still just like constantly in awe of them and all of the knowledge that they bring and they're just they're the type of investigators that we look up to

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because of what they bring to investigations they bring a lot of respect and curiosity and they're the first people to say well we don't know everything and it's a really refreshing perspective and there are people that we like to follow their Journey where petons of their patreon we listen to their podcast the haunted objects podcast and we're going to go on more ghost adventures with them yeah we are so we really hope you enjoy this episode haunted with Greg and Dana newerk it is is full of terrifying stories and just really really beautiful perspectives on the Paranormal we just got our very first haunted object sent to us in the mail oh my what what is it it's a pendul pulum that was purchased in Ohio and it has a trickster Spirit attached to it I did not ask for haunted things that's I did I will say that you two have very much inspired me enabled maybe in a dangerous way yeah like what path have you set me down I

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don't know but people say that a lot they definitely do I I like to think of us as enablers more than anything else are happy to do it happy to be it for you we know where you live so if we get anything too weird you're going to get it anytime I do need to ask both of you because we were not able to see your show but we heard you were creating a haunted painting did it work too well tell us so it start we have this joke now it's like not a joke but it is kind of a joke the second we got home from the tour and the painting came back into

The haunted painting project

the house people started to see a fleshy a fleshy blob in our house that was very low to the ground isn't this painting supposed to be of you Greg well here's a thing I think it's like I think it's growing into it's growing into me there's a there's a little egg Gregor running around the house like mutating it's a fleshy blob that's kind of human shaped so the the whole point of the show we

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kind of based the show like the beginning and ending was about the the crying boy paintings I'm sure you guys are familiar and about how the curse started and how they broke it and it the whole show is just kind of like our take on how haunted objects happen and at the end we say you want to know how they broke the curse of the crying boy is they simply just did their own magic spell they burned them all and we gave people the option at the end I said listen I have always had a thing for crying boy paintings I think they're the creepiest weirdest thing and I always wished I was one so I commissioned a crying Boy painting of myself and then when the show is over they pull the thing off of it and then in the lobby everyone gets to go in and dump a bad feeling that they don't want around anymore into the painting to help us haunt it and it got real [ __ ] up basically so what was the thought behind doing a bad feeling cuz couldn't you put good feeling into it too and

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still create a haunting you could you could the reason is what we talk about on the tour is people ask us you know where do you get your haunted objects and no one ever sends us you know you don't send somebody one that feels good you know what I mean CU that's a family areir yeah that's very rare that anyone sends us something nice it's always something terrifying the Bell that you know your grandma rang for dinner like it has Good Vibes it maybe it brings Grandma around you feel her it's not something that scares you we only get the [ __ ] that scar people well I guess yeah point being I was like oh we have a haunted object if we get anything bad I'll send it to you exactly exactly exactly which is fine that's comes with the gig yeah one of the biggest things that we do I'd say 90% of the stuff that people give to us is something that they have a bad feeling attached to something that makes them think of a moment in time or a situation or a trauma they've experienced they put it on an object they've haunted that object and by giving it to us they are able to put it out of their mind we put it on a shelf it might not do anything for us but for

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them they have put that feeling they've imbued it into something they've given it away and they don't have to think about it so we just invited people at the end to do the same thing if there's something they've been carrying around with them that they don't want anymore they want to stop thinking about put it in that painting we'll put it on a shelf like we do for so many other people and then we'll see what happens do you two ever like pause look at each other and say why are we doing this all the time all the that's the thing it's a slow slide into absurdity exactly and before you know it you can't relate I have to say and I've been in love with this story ever since we were at The Conjuring house and you told us how you two met so can you tell

A forbidden love story

everyone Your Love Story and can we make it into a movie because it is the most beautiful thing I've ever heard let's do it I love it how did we meet Dana so many many moons ago back I always tell people back in the you'll know if if you're familiar with the geoc cities

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days there were like free websites that you could build like in the early 2000s late 90s Greg and I ran uh rival ghost hunting websites ghost hunting teams I'm Canadian start as Rivals well yeah we didn't so we were we were friends in the beginning uh I'm Canadian Greg is obviously American and I was with a group of all girls and so we kind of found some Synergy there and at the time there weren't a lot of people our age doing this kind of stuff like it was a lot of older people and so we kind of gravitated towards each other because we found sort common how old were you both I was 20 and I was 16 yeah yeah 15 or 16 well then I would have been 19 yeah about 19 okay and so that's how we started we started as friends and we would sort of share uh techniques and all that kind of good stuff and then this tells you how great that my me and my friends are all boy team did with girls is they said hey we want to come down and ghost hunt with you guys for a

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weekend and we all went what girls what are we going to do uh uh uh and we all used the same excuse without realizing it every single one of them had the exact same excuse and it was that one of their grandparents died that weekend are you kidding and we were like is there something the water in Troy Pennsylvania that's like killing off everyone's grandparents because why is four Dudes telling us their grandmothers died this weekend I guess they didn't syn up you guys didn't like you didn't clear it with each other everyone's like I'm not I'm not hanging out with I'm not staying they're not staying with me and uh that was the beginning of our rivalry and it really like I'll be very hon I can be incredibly honest about it now it was I knew that Dana and I had a Forbidden Love well she didn't but I did yeah Dana did not know this I had the biggest crush on her and she had a boyfriend I'm a little bit older she she and at that point like you know three 4 year age

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difference is a much bigger deal so I was like I feel so strongly about her I'm going to turn that that strong feeling into another strong feeling called hat hatred and I just sort of like pushed them away and then they got a TV show and me and my friends got butt hurt about it and then um we still watched it I mean the the links I had to go to you know torrent can television to see this you were the only person doing that I promise then I felt so bad because I was getting ready to move from the east coast to Seattle and I was like man I really feel bad about how that ended I need to make up with Dana before I leave and I emailed and I tried finding phone numbers and I tried you know social media I could get no response and the last line of action was I realized this is creepy in hindsight I just rented a car and I drove to Canada and I knew what town her and her friends were from City second largest city in Ontario and I just started asking around and within

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45 minutes I was on the phone with Dana I found one of the girls uh at her job and um we went on a ghost hunt that night and it was the rest was history now we're married now we're married it's a light level of stalking that ends really beautifully so it's okay she made us pick her up and drop her off like four blocks from where she actually lived just in case Dana as you should when someone who was your enemy arrives to a large City and finds you within 45 minutes I know and we were my friends and I were like we're doing this as a group we're going to send them off the trail and we we yeah we told them to drop us off like blocks away from where we live so they wouldn't know but eventually he wore me down oh stop wor you down and now yeah now we're married you guys are the enemies to lovers Arc that's one of the best book genres it's the best and you collect haunted objects like it is the most Amazing Story I love it so how did you

Starting the traveling museum

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guys go from being in ghost hunting groups to collecting all of these haunted objects and at one point taking them all on the road for people to interact with complete accident it was absolutely by accident and I think that it's probably something that most people who are interested in the Paranormal on that level where they're kind of going out and investigating it's likely that you're the weirdo of your friend group which is always we say weirdo lovingly obviously but terment yeah people would they knew that we kind of separately and together were into this kind of stuff so it started with just people going this is a weird thing do you want this and and the collection just sort of it really was a natural thing it wasn't intentional it was just sort of like with you guys someone sending you something people giving you things and it started that way and then it now at this point it really one of the things we talk about a lot is it really feels as if the Museum's just sort of building itself it it just naturally kind of

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organically becoming a thing yeah right and then one day we got jobs in Cincinnati where we still live like 10 years ago and they got a booth to promote the company we worked for it's a company called Road Trippers and we liked them a lot because they help you plan road trips that are outside of like you don't want to stop at like chain restaurants you want mom and pops and stuff like that weird stuff so we were there weird be you know where you want to see a stain of a corpse we'll tell you where to go you want to see you know UFO landing site here you go all very much in our wheelhouse like just yeah if you want to go to places where Bigfoot is supposed to be we would write articles about all of these really cool weird places in America that you can go and travel that's incredible it was so much fun and we we got to just talk about weird things all day and write about weird things all day and they like you said they got a booth at an event and we didn't really know what to do so we kind of just thought all right well let's just bring some of this stuff with us and see if people are interested in it and it ended up being really popular popular and because of that also then

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tons and tons of new artifacts would come in and and so again it was sort of The Accidental beginning of something as if it was just sort of deciding all right well I'm going to build myself now so I guess this is how I'm going to do it right the museum itself you know we never planned on doing anything like that like that was never our wheelhouse we never sought out to start a collection but the artifacts planned it yeah well sort of yeah you're at their whim when we the thing that we realized when we did that first event we were the the traveling Museum of the maab was the original name because it wasn't like haunted objects it was just weird stuff from different places that were attached to road trips you could take right and there was like plank from Amityville which is haunted there was stuff like that we realized no one got to have one-on-one experiences with this stuff anytime anyone encountered this it was in a museum where it was like in a ring of salt and it was evil and you couldn't touch it and be careful you'll be cursed and we we never really bought that and we just like we want people to have an experience yeah touch the stuff handle it tell us what you feel right and when

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we realized how much people wanted that experience we were like well let's do this for real and now it is what it is it's so cool and we've covered a couple of different things that you have in your possession or have had in your possession on the podcast but when we were at The Conjuring house you know

The Gary Indiana pickup

there were multiple times where there was downtime one of my most fond memories is also probably the most terrified I felt the entire time we were in The Conjuring house but we were all in the basement and it was approaching midnight and after we had heard that EVP about death at midnight I was like panicked but you two were telling us some of the most terrifying but fascinating stories and some of them you were like well we can't really share this anywhere so basically we want to take this opportunity to have you share the ones that you can share sure cuz there was that one you were explaining a story about someone had reached out to you about an artifact that they found like in the woods MH and

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you met in like a school at a school or something is this ringing a bell you tell that are you allowed to talk about this one I can share some details from that story okay there's new developments that are very disturbing recent new development and I won't get into those yet but basically there was a guy who was reaching out to us I mean it had been at least a year we'd been talking and he had an item that he had made him self and he was influenced to build this thing by something a voice that spoke to him in the head in his head when he went to a certain part of the woods near him we were constantly saying like listen you know if this thing is is making you feel like uncomfortable or you feel it's dangerous or you don't like how you feel around it you can send it to us we'll take it off your hands you know if it does weird stuff we'll keep you a breast on it but he was too scared to send it through the mail because he was afraid that anyone who handled that mail would have some sort of an accident or

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something he was really scared of this thing yeah about a year after we started talking about this we were doing an event in Chicago it's a Chicago ghost conference and to give you the full story I have to give you another piece of this story but I promise it it'll tie in okay we have the booth set up we're having a great time and then a woman walks in and I all the blood drains out of my face because it's a woman who I had just had a a online argument with several days beforehand and this is Chicago she was from Seattle and I'm like what in the world is this person doing here she had come to just coincidentally to Chicago realized that we had been in this argument came to the event to argue with me in person to prove me wrong because she was right she was right we were arguing about the oldest occult shop in Chicago and I'd lived there for a few years and there's a place called The Occult bookstore cool super cool place we used

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to hang out there all the time who uh proclaimed to be the oldest occult shop in Chicago this woman said they're not it's Athena Candle Company and I said well I don't think think you're wrong I don't know why these people would lie about it I think it's just a confusion she came to prove it and then she said while she was there and I agreed I was like you're right you're right she said you know what I think you need to go to Athena candles there's something coming and I'm like what she's like what a turn in the morning before you go back come with me to the shop I used to work there I'll give you a tour next morning we meet her there she grabs me by the arm runs me around the room grabbing like all kinds of blessed Metals holy water salves you rub on your feet like all kinds of stuff and saying I think you need this and you need this you need this necklaces giving Dana necklaces bracelets all this stuff and I'm thinking like this is going to be expensive we just got scammed into coming to this place and spending all kinds of money and then she says it's this is not enough she takes us into the back of the building where two magic

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practitioners give us a blessing and it was beautiful and I can remember how just unbelievable whatever sort of incense they were using it smelled incredible like I'd never smelled it before and then she was like okay I think you're good and she left I looked at Dane I'm like what the heck was that about on the drive home I get a message from that guy we had talked to a year before and he said okay this is your I see that you guys are in Chicago you're going to come right through where I live you either come pick this thing up from me tonight or I'm throwing it in the river and I'm like don't do that don't do that that's fine we can be there but it's going to be like middle of the night like midnight 1:00 by the time we get there yeah he's like that's fine I'm an overnight janitor at a high school just meet me at the high school and I'll tell you about it and we can do the drop off there what we didn't realize at the time was this is in Gary Indiana like the murder capital of the world of the

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United States at the time and we pull in to this we pull into this parking lot Dana's like Park under the street light yeah the brightest one that's there and let's just be ready to get out of here and so we sit there underneath the street light it was like what 1:00 in the morning one in the morning midnight like totally empty send a a Facebook message to this guy and I say hey we're outside come meet us and he says all right I'll be right there and as we sit there under that street light I see the side door of the building open and the light shines through and there's this silhouette of a giant man holding a big box in his hand and he starts to walk towards us and every street light that he went under went out as he hit it oh it was one of those things where you're like watching it happen and as it's happening like the first time you're like oh okay and then the second time you're like oh oh No and then the I think there were three of them specifically just like boom boom boom boom that's so ominous it was so ominous

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he got to the car and I roll the window down and he starts to lean down and as he's leaning down the light above us goes out and he gets down and I just see his smile in the window and he says oh he knows what's going to happen and he's not happy about it I think we'd be safer inside and I look at Dana and we're like

An ominous artifact pickup

well what are we gonna do that like social pressure immediately kicked in where like oh okay all right I guess I'm doing this right it's like what's the right choice to survive because not only are you guys opening yourselves up to the world of paranormal and Bigfoot and aliens and all the different types of entities and spirits that could be attached to objects but you have to interact with humans that you really don't know what their scar yeah I mean and also this man is like a voice told him to create something that is evil so like what else is this voice telling him to do he's now asking you to go into a school alone oh you're way ahead of me

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yeah the scariest thing is always the people we always it's and it's something that like initially I think we never really took into consideration but this specific pickup was one that was so frightening that it it really changed the way that we do a lot of that kind of interaction with people it was the one it was the one that we were like no we have to really think differently about this because we have to be safe as much as possible right so we follow him into the school he's in this like one piece like a Michael Myers Michael Myers type like janitor suit huge big beard he leads us into the first room around the corner as we walk in empty classroom he sits down at the teacher's desk we kind of flank him and he has this big box and I'll never forget the like the only thing that made me not completely terrified was the fact that the Box containing this ancient evil entity was an UNC rustable box and it just kind of

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sprayed definitely cut the tension the tension so he sits the box down we kind of flank him around and um he starts to tell us the story about how he was going out to the woods and he started to hear a voice in his head when he was in a particular part of these woods and he would go there just to speak with this thing it was reassuring him about some of his thoughts about things and people and spirituality and ideas that he disagreed with and it finally said hey you know you don't have to keep coming out here I can help you build a phone and we can talk whenever you want and so he went and followed the instructions and the from The Voice in his head and he created this thing that was sort of like a pottery like a glazed Pottery head that looks like a screaming demon and the body is like burlap but what he didn't tell us at the time was there's like sharp edges and points and blades and stuff on the inside so if you grab it too hard you'll

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bleed on it oh God fortunately didn't do that and then he said it started to not leave him alone and when he was around this thing things would move around his room he started to feel terrible one of the things the voice told him was to imbue his hatred of all of these things and people and ideas into the object he literally called it hatred jeez we could feel The Vibes while we were there and as he's talking about this I start to hear death and chairs like sliding around in other rooms and I said I thought you said we were alone you're the only janitor he's like I am that's him and he's not happy that you're going to go you're going to take him home and then he grabs the side of the desk white knuckling and says in fact he's telling me I need to hurt you right now and he starts to stand up and I immediately I'm looking around like how long can I hold this guy off while Dana runs screaming into Gary Indiana yeah I mean we we try to as much as we

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can when when that we have face t- face interactions with people and they're giving us things we usually film it if they're comfortable with that and we we're filming this one and when you watch the footage I was the one filming it and at this point like the camera literally starts shaking because I couldn't keep my hands I was so like my I was so scared that the footage is all over the place because I was just like like just we you just got to get through this get and and it's one of those things where immediately your fight ORF flight Instinct kicks and you're just like where's every exit sure how do we get through this scenario and we were both I think Absolut we were at that place where we're like all right we need to just safely try to get out of here as much as as fast as we can and it seems like anyone knowing where you were and in the morning didn't really matter I remember specifically I don't know if you remember this but the high school was also sort of on the outer portion of the area so it was kind of an isolated spot just to begin with coupled with the fact that it was 1 in the morning every no one was around and it was genuinely a

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terrifying thing wow so as he's standing up and I'm like looking at the exits and you know trying to feel like can at least Dana get out of here I smell that incense yeah the whole room it was like a fog like someone out of nowhere there was like a wall of scent that just completely filled the room that we were in and it it was like a fog it was it it surrounded us and it such a specific smell it was absolutely 100% % the exact same smell that we had smelled earlier in the oils that we had been given and the blessing it was the whole room filled with this just beautiful beautiful smell chills oh my gosh and to think you wouldn't have had that protection if Greg you weren't online fighting with the figh strangers your Scorpio Tendencies finally paid off see fight with strangers and um lightly stalk those you love yeah we're giving everybody theong all the Scorpio today it's all working

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out for you do not listen to me no Dana and I looked at each other when we smelled that and immediately knew what we were supposed to do and Dana starts pulling the bracelets and necklaces off and we just start putting them on him yeah all the oils everything that we had been given we were like oh this wasn't for us this is for him absolutely it was all for him so everything we just kind of started just loading him up with it and it was almost immediate like you could feel the tension sort of leave and he sort of started to relax and then he was just like take it and you guys leave we like I think you guys should leave we're like way ahead of you and at the time we drove a a 2006 Scion xB which is basically a gokart yes and we put the pedal to the metal drove a real fast like 35 miles hour as fast as we could away from there Gary Indiana it took like a good 20 seconds to even like move from the spot to start yes yes and as soon as we got to a place with like pull

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the cranks to get it to go yeah we pulled into you know what it was it was a it was like a grocery store it was yeah uh there was like a 24-hour grocery store we pulled over and I just threw up everywhere because I've never been that sure I was going to die yeah it was that like honestly it was immediate figh ORF flight like you just every muscle tensed in my body and I was just like oh we need to like this is was a really really bad idea so by the point that we reached sort of the outer parts of town I think we our brains were able to sort of start coming back online again and he immediately was just like like it was just the reaction to finally having a moment to relax it was wild yeah that one I mean I Wish I Had A better ending to that story but uh it is it was very quiet for a long time and it has been only within the past year I would say that there have been really recent developments it's the interesting thing about investigating objects and having objects be sort of a a focal point of what we do is the investigations can last for years and years and years and they go through various phases and they change and they

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become you know different types of things and we also learn and grow I mean the things that we believe now you know we can look back 10 years ago and be like oh my God what why do we think we feel the same way you know the more we read the more people we talk to right and I think that's the I mean coolest but also hardest part about the Paranormal is that there are no definitive answers and it is continuously evolving and there's so many different types of hauntings and so we don't know anything you guys have two objects or one object that's no longer in your possession that I think are

Respecting haunted objects

great examples of this Billy the idol and then the Crone of cat skills that appeared really aggressive and scary but you found out in your research and interactions with them that they're largely just misunderstood absolutely for sure and a lot of that I think is in terms with Billy Billy was an a congales statue that was given to us by a man who found it in a burlap sack buried under his home and he believed that it was

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giving him and his family nightmares and I met him he didn't want anything to do with it he's like it's your he literally said to me in the parking lot of a Walmart in like Dayton he said I don't care it's your problem now and he walked away I have a I took a photo there's a really funny photo of Greg coming back to the car after the interaction and the look on his face because he knows he's gonna have to tell me what he what he and he's just like like it's the ultimate like oh oh it's so great I mean Dan is sitting in the car like waiting to call 911 that's what I'm always doing I'm always just like oh but yeah it's true and and I think that's the thing is the greatest part about this is that none of us really understand what's going on and it is a matter of taking that explorative kind of approach and I think that that is why so many of our investigations change and shape and become different things because we're constantly we're constantly growing and learning and our opinions are changing and then we can apply those to the the things that we investigate as much as we can well with Billy we learned we

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learned a lot with Billy Billy was really the turning point in how we thought about haunted objects and it's gotten to the point where you know we found out Billy was a Ki figure which is a a holy Relic to people in central Congo they would use these figures to make deals with the gods to speak to their dead to talk to the gods of of the air and the sky and and this is the thing they came to them in dreams these entities would come to them in dreams I started having dreams they were scary at first and the responses that we got were scary at first and we realized well these figures are only in the United States because white missionaries went to the Congo took them all as prizes destroyed their religion and if I woke up under a white dude's house and Dayton I'd be upset too and it took a little while to kind of understand the importance of what this type of statue was which is why he's retired we don't

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have we don't take him out with the museum because we realize that you know a couple white people from the Midwest with this holy Relic uh not that should probably be re repatriated to where it came from yeah we don't ever want people to think that we're trying to make these things do tricks or disrespect them he now has a place of honor literally in the living room he has a he has an actual altar in the living room and we work with him and probably will never be in the museum probably will end up back in the in the Congo the same type of thing that happened with the Crone sometimes I think these things are only in our possession for a short while both to get them to where they need to go to educate us on getting outside of our maybe the the belief systems that were instilled with us in the western world and kind of like I understand animism a lot more than I did before I understand different forms of ritual magic a lot more than I did before I mean I think this is one of the most beautiful things about what you to do Greg and Dana is

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that and I'm glad that these objects do wind up with you because you treat them with such respect and you do the extra work to do the research and really get to the bottom of what they are and I think a lot of people wouldn't do that and then the hauntings would be worse and so K and I talk about it a lot and how much we admire what you two do that means so much lot yeah you guys feel like the anomalies of the Paranormal community too we we feel that way too it does you

The empathy-driven approach

also go in with a healthy amount of skepticism as well which a lot of people that do this frequently and have a following like there it's the tendency to Scream ghost or paranormal or Bigfoot right away instead of actually doing the work to understand there's an entertainment aspect to the Paranormal because of you know TV shows and movies and how Society has portrayed it but if you take the understanding that the these souls or whatever it may be that's connected to them were once human or can

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be treated should be treated with empathy the same way you should treat other humans I think it completely changes yeah you just nailed it yeah I think Billy honestly was you know and we've talked about this before but I think that was the first instance where the activity that people were experiencing Around Billy a lot of people were having dreams and and there was a lot of uh activity around Billy and it was sort of this first moment for us and initially where we started to really recognize how exploitative the subject matter can really be and how there is an a very strange lack of empathy and and Humanity when it comes to talking about these things even if we're just referring to ghosts the general basic idea behind them for many people is that they are human Souls that have not found their way to wherever they need to go and right it's weird that it's not our initial approach to be to to come at it with compassion and and empathy and Humanity inad we going to fight them exactly come at

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me come at me bro yeah yeah we've taken a weird turn when it comes to that like how we approach it and and interact with it and so we try as much as we can to bring that into pretty much everything that we do as much as much as we can there's a cognitive dissonance with a lot of people who have sort of set themselves up as people with the answers because they will yell at you up and down saying no these are the souls of the Dead they are intelligent but we're not going to treat them that way or we're going to talk to them like I think we did even when we were at The Conjuring house with you guys one of the First Things We Said is like we try really hard not to sound like we're talking to babies when we do sessions which is like which you default to because you just sort of go well can you yeah it's in your your voice goes up a couple octaves and if someone talked to me like that I'd be like what do you you think something's wrong with me no yeah yeah it's like condescending yeah so just real quick I just wanted to find out if you still have the object that you retrieve from this guy yes yes okay

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I'll give you a little sneak at where this is probably going and I don't know again this stuff changes with every piece of information we get about a year and a half ago I got an email from somebody who knows you know some of the details about hatred we haven't shared publicly and he sent me a photo and it's a photo of a seven foot tall hatred from Sweden somebody in Sweden went to the forest and a always talked to them in their head told them to build it and it's the same it looks exact and so the thing about it is it's a very distinct design like it it's huge it and it's the same design randomly this is scaring the [ __ ] out of me it's really it's a little un you know we have to investigate it we have to kind of continue and come into it as much as we can yeah how do you not investigate that yeah yes exactly but yeah so so when are we all going to Sweden I'm inviting ourselves come on yeah this is such a challenge for you guys too that you have to you have to

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take everything worldwide too it's not like you just get the the benefit of having to research something locally I feel like so many of the objects you guys have to really immerse yourselves in these cultures and like dig so deep to figure out what's actually going on it's funny because you saying that it's been really a a positive beneficial thing for us because it sort of helps us uh break down our own Western ideals about because when you when you explore the Paranormal from other cultural perspectives suddenly you get very different ideas about what's going what is going on and expanding your mind into some of those spaces allows you to evolve and develop and and change and so it it's been a really wonderful thing for us and I think in a lot of ways it helps us be better investigators is to sort of yeah break apart a lot of those those things that we've been taught and what we we naturally kind of default to when it comes to the Paranormal specifically in the west and it has really helped to tear down a lot of the those unnecessary kind of bias that exists just organically kind of also

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goes back to the haunted painting that you're creating right this idea that a haunting Is So based on the people the beliefs the energy around it and so you have to consider societal factors and

Subjective paranormal experience

cultural factors every story we hear is coming from somebody's lived experience and to try and like stick that in a box is very I don't think it's fair because right you know one of our big things that we've we've come to learn is the Paranormal is subjective for everybody and you can take that one of two ways you can either go well it's not real because I can't experience the same exact thing or you can say well if it's subjective maybe I should subject myself to it see what kind of experience I have compare that to this person's experience find the commonalities between those two and then you start to realize the our brains are I think the most important mechanism to how paranormal phenomena manifests and if you have a specific view of the Paranormal it's going to show you something specific to you in

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order to enact whatever change it's trying to get you to effect we can talk we can go back to telling scary stories it's no I mean these are very important mindsets to talk about when it comes to the Paranormal and I think it's great to have this type of conversation it is I think of it sort of I love I like using visual sort of imagery and the way that my brain always kind of conjures an image is of kind of light coming through a prism each of us like you said each of us have had our unique individual experience lived reality and we are sort of in a lot of ways reflecting the Paranormal is reflecting through the prism of our identity of our personality and giving us this very strange experience to have that might initiate Us in some way change Us in some way so it is and and for some of us speak for it because it can't speak for itself exactly and so you get all of these really beautiful it's like a tapestry

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when you really look at it it's all of these different colors but really we are looking at like sort of one big thing but when you zoom in you can see that you can observe it in lots and lots of different ways depending on where you come from what your life has been like kind of trauma you have or what kind of joy you have and it all sort of filters through us so that we can observe it outside of ourselves which is like the it's beautiful like it really is a beautiful thing well I remember us talking about this too when we were all together at the con house that we've received emails and I even had an experience of my own where something that I thought was a haunting for a really long time in my life as I've gotten older I've started to have the realization that I actually think it was me in the future dealing with some trauma and whatever I do because it hasn't happened yet whatever I do in that moment brings me back to that period and I'm the one haunting myself it's just all these things where it's like it takes so long to to develop or even like understand something that could be as basic as like oh I saw a

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woman in the corner of my room and she'd come and like Comfort Me by petting my hair it seems so basic that you would scream like oh that's a ghost or that's a that's a spirit guide or whatever and it just there's so many different layers to things and as we mature and we have different understandings of things how drastic all of that can shift yeah and that's the thing like it's one of the reasons why we don't we try not to ever criticize someone's lived paranormal experience and we try not to we try to offer Alternatives and new and different things but you can take it or leave it because the bottom line is I think and you might agree with this I'm not sure but it's this my in my mind I think of it as a journey and as as you sort of Journey Into the Woods that are the Paranormal we learn to like our eyes shift a little bit we can see in the dark a little bit better we have a better idea and I think even if you're someone who isn't necessarily psychic or any or even believing in those types of things I think that we uncons iously kind of tap into different types of energies because we're around them a lot

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we're interested in this kind of stuff it's like watching someone kind of take that journey and when you when you can come to the conclusion on your own it's so much more impactful like your story is so beautiful it's incredible and and just having gone through the process of coming to that conclusion is such a cool thing it's it's lovely to see I love that yeah but if you'd been closed off to it yeah if you had been closed off and not open-minded enough to to imagine wait what if that is me what if that's not what I thought it was you wouldn't have that beautiful experience that provides an interesting new way to look at your own life insight and that's what makes me so sad about one of my friends called it the Paranormal industrial complex they are just telling the same story over and over and over and it's one that reinforces fear without a way out of that fear that doesn't involve either one specific religious belief or one specific belief about what ghosts are and so I feel bad for so many people who are experiencing what I truly do think think are spontaneous initiatory experiences that we have evolved to have

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we have been seeing and experiencing ghosts and strange things since man could write it down and now we are still stuck in that idea that they're like a bad thing because of you know a handful of Bad actors that are telling us these things are terrible for you and you better not experience them but yeah I can do it for you yeah it's the realization that and I think what's cool about it is for a lot of people they get to a point where if it's something that they're really interested in I think at a certain point a lot of that stuff doesn't really work on them any they get to a point they like Ah that's fine but I'm going to keep I'm going to keep going down the road because I think there might be more interesting things around this Bend and so we just constantly try to be like come further down the road with us it's weirder down here it's so much fun what's the the phrase the map is not the territory yes exactly I like that the map is to get you to the edge but it's up to you to chart your own path yeah exactly I love that but okay but also that all being

Misinformation and Ouija boards

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said there are some things that are dangerous to to dabble in and there are some things that people should be cautious I guess maybe it's the way you approach it right there are some people who yes like Ouija boards can be used in a really negative way and if you're not protecting yourself perhaps you could be inviting something a little bit darker in right I think that it's it's a matter of sort of unpacking the pop culture because the that will always kind of find its way into the conversation is a lot of things there's a lot of sort of misinformation the interesting thing about the Paranormal Community is there's no rules so people can sort of just make them up as they go and that's a great thing because it leads US Open to exploration but it can also be uh difficult because like you said you can you can find that elements of things will come into it and inevitably you you'll bump into that you know don't don't go down that road kind of thing you know make sure you close the Ouija board yes and I think the thing is I

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think that as long as we are interested in the subject matter continuing to kind of educate ourselves about safe ways for us personally because for you using a Ouija board might be something that is just not you're not interested in that and that is your choice and it's how you feel about it and and so it's great that you would have people around you that would respect that and it's just a matter of making sure that we just kind of continue having like a healthy Foundation to Ober these things from and I think that in doing that it gives us more of a Clarity and an ability to discern because I think discernment is sort of the biggest issue when it comes to that kind of stuff and then we know where we're comfortable what we're comfortable doing and what we're not comfortable doing but it's when people kind of make blanket statements about things like all Ouija boards are terrible don't ever touch them portals will open and you kind of immediately it stops people from being allowed to be curious about something sure when really if we have that solid foundation of knowledge information underneath our feet we'd be less afraid and we'd be a little bit more we'd have that

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discernment so that we can move cautiously into spaces where we may experience things that aren't great because like in all things you can meet like the shittiest human being at the grocery store it it just happens it can happen anywhere well it's also if someone says something enough like if we're told Ouija boards are going to create portals and are negative enough but then I'm tempted and I want to do it just to like understand but that's the cognitive mind I'm going into that with then I'm probably also perpetuating that belief in using it but you don't know you're doing it and that's the that's I think the real danger of of the Paranormal is not knowing is not understanding where the information we're repeating is coming from because when you trace it back you can start to understand where these ideas and Concepts came from and you can see who's actually doing the research the thing about Ouija boards is it's exactly yeah it's the perfect we're recording this around Valentine's Day Ouija boards were marketed as a date thing where you could sit really close to someone you love so

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your knees could touch back in the could touch and you could sit with your crush and and do something cute and spooky but you were physically close to someone you had you would ask love questions and marriage questions and all that kind of stuff and then with I mean The Exorcist being you know obviously the scariest movie ever made it really started to change the perception of Ouija boards and suddenly they became things that kind of brought that negative connotation with them and people have had frightening experiences with them they're tools of divination you can have a scary experience with any form of divination but the wi board now has this like extra layer of fear brought into it and and it it takes on a different meaning then and then we have to approach it with a different perspective sort of yeah I'll send you guys some pictures after this of of old Ouija board advertisements from like the 50s and the 60s and it's literally it's always a couple sitting together and like you know you can tell they're each other hands and their knees are touching it's just very cute I think

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there's like a famous Norman Rock there's a famous Norman Rockwell painting of like a cute couple using the Ouija board together they were they didn't used to have this yeah this like satanic overtone weird but now we get it so much which is like you guys talking about this is just making me reflect on my own experience where it's like I have no fear using my pendulum and how different is my pendulum than using a Ouija board but we've just had so much information fed to us that Ouija boards if you do it incorrectly something horrible can happen we've received Sabrina and I so many emails I'm sure you guys have heard a million different stories of course of course so it's like I think the thing that Sabrina and I have also felt in the past few years is we want to do everything correctly so it's not that we're closed off to doing anything but it's like you know our very first paranormal investigation and overnight we called you guys cuz we were like we're going to do it wrong like we're going to [ __ ] something up if we just try it like we need to learn from the people that know more than us and so I think we've been taking kind of baby

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steps towards things because we're being super cautious and trying to be really respectful you taught us so much about

Tools for investigation

intention setting and that's something Karen and I have kind of been talking to a lot of people who practice Witchcraft and also K and I both have a lot of our own abilities that we would love to tap into and learn more about and so so much of that Journey for us has been about setting intentions and then with new practices that we're exploring again just being like you know what I want to get out of this and reading oracle cards or tarot cards it's very much like I've been spending time meditating almost and setting some type of intention and trying to connect with my ancestors and Guardians to help guide me through the practice and I think you can take that approach with Ouija boards too yeah 100% yeah I mean the thing that I love and it's something that I've noticed happening quite a bit over the past few years is there has been in the past almost a fear specifically in the Paranormal Community to explore places

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within esoterica or the occult or Witchcraft and the irony is occultists and witches and Magic practitioners have like kind of quietly been going like they're going to catch on eventually because it they're tools that we can use as people who are interested in investigating these things that that give us discernment they are new tools we can use to approach and observe the things that we're experiencing and protect us from things that we maybe you know communicating with ancestors can be protective for you but whatever it is it's another set of tools that you have as an investigator in your toolbox that you can use to investigate observe discern and interact with these types of things and it really I think it's a beautiful thing and I love seeing people kind of start to bring that with them and and intention setting is like the best way to do that I love it yeah it almost feels like a preep too for a lot of the investigations where it's like a reminder to the space to the house to

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the woods and to anything that's around that you're going to be respectful and you're going to respond to what they give you because it's reminding me again at The Conjuring house all four of us went in with the ideas that of what everyone else has said about The Conjuring house and is that true is that not and I just remember at the very end of the night we ended up I mean we had the house until what 8:00 a.m. and then we ended up leaving at 4:30 because the pendulum that we were using was so taut it like wasn't trying to speak at all the house felt a little bit quieter and more relaxed and kind of sleepy and so we were responding to the house being like I think I'm done yeah yeah and you know exactly we had a lovely time the energy in that place felt nice it didn't it didn't feel scary you know I mean at the beginning when you're feeling it out it can be like any situation it's a little you know there's nervousness yeah and especially when you're going into it with your your mind is full with stories and information and and things that

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other people have experienced so you kind of go in loaded like prepared to have that kind of experience but like you said when you set that intention you get that sort of solid footing underneath you you can see the environment a little bit more clearly and and it's again I'm like a broken record but it allows for discernment so that you can kind of look at it and go okay what's going on in here and I think you're right like we left feeling that it was I felt kind of fun like it was a very experience and I sort of it was I kept like we had some spooky moments yeah for sure but overall like I didn't leave thinking this place was demonic or anything like that you know I don't no I don't get that impression from most places honestly I mean you two totally encouraged our now it's like something that K and I are doing continuously we're going to more haunted places that's so awesome yeah we love investigating you've enabled us again perfect you are our influencer we just copy whatever you do truly paranormal pushers yeah first taste is

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free yeah like so yeah I want to make sure people know too you guys are incredibly flattering we don't know what we're doing yeah do you know what I mean like we we just commit ourselves to experiences and we we experience them as fully as we can and try and like come up with what feels like the right path through and sometimes it feels like there's a guiding hand and sometimes we have to forge our own way everything that we have ever done in the Paranormal has been trial and error and we're very Pro trial and error and we're giving you what we've found to be true after 25 years of doing this which you know I don't want to again I don't want to take anything away from somebody else's experience if they've had an experience and they say it's scary I believe them we get stuff like that all the time we get haunted objects sent to us that never act up for us you know most of them never do anything but I respect that experience all we're ever trying to do is help people break out of that mindset that the Paranormal industrial complex has given them and give them

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options and when they're provided because they don't know there's even options when they're provided options you go oh wait a second this can be a really beautiful sometimes scary experience but scary experiences help us grow they help us learn if you are scared of the dark you're never going to know what's making that sound in the basement and maybe it's a kitten yeah maybe you get a kitten if you go into the dark bement you know one of the things I mean it's a motto that we we use constantly and it's sort of our The Motto that it kind of best describes the way that we approach things in the Paranormal and it's really just curiosity over fear we try to be as curious about something and I think you can be curious and cautious and you can be curious and protect yourself but we try to when we're faced with the moments where there's fear that comes in and it feels as if it's a fear that someone else is either placed upon something or it's a fear that we're kind of bringing with us into something that isn't really how we actually feel about

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it we let ourselves explore the idea of being curious about it so hatred is a great example it's it's an object that is frightening that people have had frightening experiences with but as much as we can in those instances in a safe way we try to approach that investigation with curiosity and and allow ourselves to be curious about what why when where and how yeah if you do it in a way that's safe what you find is that there are a lot of new doors that you can go through and and I think having the foundation of things like intention setting and exploring some of those different kind of modalities and ways of of investigating can give you again that sort of solid footing so you can be a little bit more Curious and you can go well right I don't really agree with that maybe I think a little bit differently about that I'm G to cautiously explore this a bit and so it gives you that the space to do that a bit more so in regard to the objects that you guys have that you live amongst many of them plus you yourselves go out and are around a lot of different

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energies it's not only you two that are affected by it but you also have pets so how do you how do you introduce these new energies to your home and then how do you decide where to put them like have you ever put two objects next to each other and they've like yes gotten

Managing household energies

in a fight yes we have a I we brought it with us the the dark mirror to The Conjuring house the dark mirror is like a battery and whenever we take it with us to if we if we've done an event or something like that and a lot of people have looked in it it's like we always describe it as the kid that you don't want your kid to hang out with because it's a bad influence on all of the other ones and it they got the Kool-Aid mouth yeah they're they're just going to like start trouble so it's again like Greg has said before it's a lot of trial and error and it's a lot of recognizing that some things just can't be in the same vicinity as other things so pretty much everything in the museum is we have very specific place places where we keep them and like with all things one of the things that we talk a lot about is energetic hygiene so when you're

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somebody who goes into some of these spaces or you're you're investigating you kind of have to keep in mind that like we have physical hygiene that we do and we probably should also have some energetic hygiene so clearing away a lot of energy and one thing that we've noticed specifically with the object is it's just not letting that energy get too stagnant if I haven't cleansed or cleared a place out in a while if it's allowed to sort of sit and really kind of root itself that's when we start experiencing really weird things so we just have sort of a cycle of energetic cleansing that we do in the house uh energetic hygiene that we do for ourselves and we just it's literally like brushing our teeth at that point we just kind of do the same things every time someone gives us an object it's like chapter one for us because we want to continue that investigation we want to understand why there's been activity around it so I also think the aspect of uh that conflict resolution like wanting to come to some kind of a conclusion sort of help helps things not feel tooo stagnant not like it's not a thing that's being forgotten ooh this thing's

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being weird well there it goes on the shelf and then you experience weird things but you're not really curious about why or how or if you can help it and I think that coming at things from that perspective helps us sort of live amongst so much weird so many weird things we watch our cats too they they react to they really our cat Oliver we always say trust your pets so oh yeah trust your pet our cat Oliver inspects every new item that comes in he's like he's he's a weird cat where he he has to smell and inspect every new thing that comes into the house whether it's in a box or not and I kid you not there are times when he growls he does he just knows and that's when we are like oh something's up with this one yeah Spirit photos every the spirit whenever the spirit photos show up he starts to growl we've got a collection of of antique like Victorian Spirit photos and there's a couple of them yeah that he's had a really strong response to and as soon as they came in the house we have a cabinet we have kind of like a Proto brick and mortar Museum that we're it's kind of like our vision board for what the brick

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and mortar is going to look like in the house and uh he sits in that room all day he he loves it in there just like I think he's guarding it he's like he's like he he's so interesting because I feel like he's just chasing kind of negative energy around getting rid of it like you'll just see him doing it all day long kicking them out he's yeah he's like get hit the bricks but anything that's too we keep most of the objects downstairs we have like very specific places where we keep everything and the cats we don't let the cats down here we just kind of just for our own sanity we keep them upstairs but yeah they definitely know they absolutely know that's wild I mean my family dog when he had passed away my house in Vermont I told you guys was very haunted growing up on and off and when my dog passed away for 6 months it was completely silent other than just hearing his Spirit like the clicke clickity of his nails on the hardwood floor or like seeing new scratch marks where he would stretch but everything else was dead silent and we're like oh my gosh he's patrolling the house he's kicking all of

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the ghosts out oh I love that so much that's the best he was finally on on like an even playing Ground as them and so he was like wrap it up folks this his territory now it's bouncer getting rid of everything he was the bouncer that's awesome what's the newest addition to your Museum um oh my God uh I have a new working ritual dagger now yes Greg yeah wait you cut yourself on it didn't you I don't think we've talked about this publicly you gave yourself like Stigmata it's a nice big uh scar now it looks so good now it's gonna heal internally I think for another month and a half do you want to tell them what happened well that the sort of Proto Museum room I was putting the finishing touches on it and I had this old like 1970s 1960s hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn air dagger they're beautiful they got this beautiful yellow handle and there's like you know there's Hebrew text on it uh it is beautiful gorgeous how did you

1:00:00

find it literally magician I just purchased it off of magician dead magician lot like a lot of the stuff that we get our focus is really not haunted objects those just come to us it's historical paranormal artifacts

Curating paranormal history

yeah we the museum is sort of it is an attempt to curate all aspects of the Paranormal so we also try like one of the things we have a lot of and we've really been focusing a lot is investigators of sort of days gone by a lot of the times a lot all of their research is just sitting in like you know basements and in you know resued so many people's stuff going into the garbage it's incredible and it's filled with so much useful information and you have someone else's perspective on an investigation of something so we really try to focus as much as we can on curating paranormal history but also having a lot of things that other investigators will eventually be able to use we'll have them so that they're accessible This research is

1:01:00

accessible to other paranormal investigators because you have your own Library we really do yeah we're really trying to build one we think about all the time is there there was an investigator of many things but the Moth Man prophecies was written by a man named John Keel and he's one of the the greatest investigators of high strangeness sort of a really big inspiration for a lot of people who are interested in in UFOs and high strangeness and when he passed they threw all of his research out like most of it it's just gone forever and this was a lifetime this man was he investigated that's so upsetting it's so so upsetting and we started realizing that you know we can curate a lot of these things so we we've really made an effort to do that as much as we can well when we reached out to you to about joining us at The Conjuring house Greg you were driving cross country with UFO wreckage and documents from area 5 literally yes yes and you're like talk to you in a few days got to get home to Jana caring some valuables it is true

1:02:00

and you know what's funny we the very last episode of the first season of the podcast of the our the haunted objects podcast we did a a whole thing about the guy who owned that stuff and how much he influenced like he's the guy who put Area 51 on the map and this stuff was just going to go in the trash and there's research files in like Stakeout videos where he was like at the Vegas Airport watching who was flying to area 51 the reason we know so much about it now is literally because of him he put the maps together he found this place called Freedom Ridge where you could see in and it would have been destroyed lost forever it's beautiful work and that's the type of thing that we're trying to do that's where the ritual dagger came from was from a lot like that so there was like ritual robes and things like that I was putting the finishing touches I can't did room and I have this you know the shelves are about like that and I'm like how am I going to display this beautiful this beautiful dagger and I saw a group of candles that had sigils

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etched in on them from a ritual that we did at the proctor house yeah in for an episode of a show called kindred spirits and I picked out the one that I had drawn there was a Sigil on the side that I had drawn and it's been so long I can't remember what the sigil was for what it was supposed to manifest and I'm like o this will look really cool if I take the blade of the dagger and I like put it down into the candle and display it right side up in there and I did that it looked sick and I went to put it on the shelf and the handle was about that much too tall to fit I was like oh I just got to push it into the wax a little further the wax was kind of hard and I pushed it in not thinking the candle splits in half and the dagger goes and it like touches bone my God have you thought about the fact that you kind of just did like a blood ritual accidentally you don't well wait just wait just wait it gets there's elements I have not talked about on social media yes gosh I look at my hand

1:04:00

and there's a dagger sticking straight out of it it's so sharp too like after the fact I was looking at it and I was like oh my this was like so so sharp this isn't like it's not like a a costume knife or anything like it's a it was really sharp and it was definitely in there like at least that much now I look at it and I'm like why didn't I take a picture it would be the most metal album cover ever I was thinking and I realized I was holding another artifact in my hand with the knife as I did that and I dropped it obviously and I didn't think about it pulled the knife out and blood just starts pouring pours all over the artifact and I don't think about it immediately I was like as calm me as I could Dana we have to go to the emergency room and she runs in you know sees what's going on and we get in the car we go to the emergency room very hard to explain what happened to the people at the front desk get five stitches tetan a shot tetan a shot come home look at the stuff that's going on

1:05:00

on the ground and realize what item it is I I tell you guys off air because you're gonna scream realize what what what it is and then Dana goes you know what's weird the minute that you stabbed your hand I got a phone call from a number that I didn't recognize and I'm like well that what what is it and she's like I don't know and I was like well let's Google it do you have the audio on your phone you have to get your oh I have my phone right here I'll play this audio for you okay so oh my gosh this is no one has heard so I I look at the timing and I'm

The accidental blood ritual

literally on the edge of my see I've been leaning leaning forward my phone gets a phone call as either the moment that this happened or the minute or as we were driving to the hospital and I'm not paying attention to it hours and hours go by and I was like oh yeah I got a weird phone call and they left a message and th this is the message that is left I don't know who at the time that this is happening I have no idea the number is listed but it doesn't say where it's coming from and I

1:06:00

had to do a bit of research to find it here's what the audio is so this is sent to my phone probably around the time that where did it go we looked at the math this last night and it and it it lines up within minutes of this happening and Dana her number's not listed our private numbers are not anywhere no one and we'll give you a bit more information after you hear it but here's the audio Goode it feels like a Furby called you I like slurping wet like slurp weird mouth sounds and then a little kid going goodbye goodbye Dana Googles the number and sees that it comes from an address on green devil Lane and so immediately we're like oh this is related to the helier case we've been working on that's really strange and then we realize it's a high school in Kentucky and their mascots are the Green Devils which are

1:07:00

kind of pan they literally look like pan which is all in our series helier and I look at the um I look at the candle and the candle that has split the sigil on it literally looks and I didn't realize this looks like a dagger going into a palm it's like I'll send you photos literally yeah what in the world four years ago four or five years ago and then a few days later one of our Museum members goes back and watches an investigation we had done with the artifact they don't know this artifact by the way they'll know after they listen to this episode but they can know they watched an investigation with the artifact I was holding in my hand at the time and while Dana's doing the Estus method she goes those aren't kids from that school stop it stop it no that's four years ago yeah I hate

1:08:00

this so much it everything about it is so perfectly like it's literally like oh there's the puzzle piece oh there's the puzzle piece and it's like it's like Dana was saying like sometimes you you have to be patient because these puzzle pieces they don't work linearly kind of happens across it's like your story the same type of thing where you don't know that's just me ex and you might not get the piece that fits next into the piece that you already have you might get the one that you need four four years in the future so it's a matter of going like eventually realize oh crap and now I have all the pieces and look at that they all fit together how weird is that oh my God and the way you had to put those pieces together are pretty painful yeah not so fun I have a badass scar now though that's true the coolest thing is I get to tell people I stabbed a guy and you and I got stabbed you can pick either depending on the conversation exactly right wow that's so good well now I'm so curious what it is you'll tell us afterwards I'll tell I'll tell you yeah

1:09:00

I have to tell you guys too because you guys didn't see all the bits of footage and video that we took for no from The Conjuring house but this isn't paranormal this is just we found it very funny there were like three moments where Sabrina and I one of us was scared and it was so funny to see your reactions to us being scared because it wasn't really like acknowledging it as much cuz you guys were much braver and you knew what was going on and it was us just like picking up on like oh my gosh this is happening and there was one where Sabrina's like taking me through some breathing exercises quietly in the corner of the couch cuz I was a little scared and I was like wow I'm so scared sa goes that's okay just breathe through it and Dana you just walk behind me and turn all the lights off I'm so sorry cold was so funny because in the moment no in the moment there was nothing that felt wrong about that move cuz we were

1:10:00

preparing like but out of context just that one little clip was so funny we were cracking up so time to learn to swim yeah let's go let's do it and then when we were doing the Estus method and Dana you were hooked in and Greg you were hearing all of the questions and the answers live with us there was a part where Sabrina asks is there any that we can do to make it better when we were hearing about the bodies buried somewhere in the in the field and they said you or Dana it was through through your voice but I asked is there anything that could make it better and it responded you or Dana through 's method and Sabrina's like and Greg you are cracking up my that's his default to fear my default fear response is to laugh laughing hysterically uh very true laughter is the best exorcism too I was laughing too good that's true laughter

1:11:00

is the best exorcism if you're scared just find something to laugh about and it immediately shifts your energy and suddenly you're like all right everything's not so bad there's like a part of you that doesn't expect to be acknowledged and so the weird thing is like when it acknowledges you it's weird it's a weird thing it's a strange thing and it's you're like you can see me what like it's the yeah it's the Str it's constant even now we've been doing this so long now there's times when I look at I will look at my friends when something unbelievable happens like if we're on a case or we're shooting something and something insane happens I look at them I go oh this shit's real isn't it yeah this is real because there's always that voice you know you're always like are we just laring yeah nope nope this is real monsters are real I guess that's awesome yeah okay another story I and I don't know if you

Hypnosis and astral travel

are allowed to talk about this or if you want to talk about this this but aliens yeah you two shared a wild story about a

1:12:00

hypnosis can you talk about that yeah so in the in the second season of our series helier there is a very controversial episode where we performed an experiment people were mad at us after the fact yeah um but I think that the ends justify the means yeah it was everyone it was consensual consensual experimentation we all know's we all know what we're signing up for and we've done this a few times now we have yeah there was uh years and years ago before we were working on a web series that we were trying to make and one of the ideas was this episode of the web series was we want to get abducted by aliens what can we do to get abducted by aliens earnestly like we really wanted to try as much as we could we we went to one of the biggest UFO hotspots a lot of people have experiences people claim they've been taken by lights in the sky at this place experiencers have had you know their own kind of UFO sightings there so we we went genuinely wanting to have some kind of an experience as much as we

1:13:00

possibly could didn't happen the oldfashioned way yeah so we uh started to think up an experiment and I contacted uh a hypnotist and said hey hypnosis is used in a lot of alien abduction memory recovery cases there's a lot of pros and cons you know if you look at the old satanic Panic cases back from like the 80s Michelle remembers like stuff like that you see hypnosis used in a very bad way that hurt a lot of people and so we're like well this is going to be funny we're g to try and get instead of having one pulled out of us let's put an abduction experience into one of us see if there's physical manifestations see if this person comes out believing in it etc etc a friend of ours who did not believe in in extraterrestrials did not think that they existed ended up being the one who was Chen Chen for this experiment so in a hotel how are they chosen well we did hypnosis induction test yeah so the the

1:14:00

group of us everyone was sort of prepared to possibly be the person chosen but we wanted to see who was most susceptible to hypnosis and who would sort of go under as fast as they could so we did a couple of different experiments where we allowed the hypnotist to sort of put us into light trance to see if like we were we we were the kind of person who would hypnotism would work on and there was one out of the group of us who was very very uh well there were two we we were kind of trying to rig the game so that our really one funny of our funniest friends would go we could sit there and like whisper in the hypnosis you know hypnotist ear like be as tell him he's getting probe you know we thought they would be so funny to have give him the most ridiculous experience possible right well the problem was the other guy who was just as susceptible had told the hypnotist that he didn't believe in hypnotism and so he was like oh I have something to prove now challenge and it's the same one who didn't believe in aliens too right didn't believe in aliens didn't believe and like this person he's our friend Jason gwon he's also very light-hearted

1:15:00

very fun like he's a very sweet light-hearted person he's not the kind of person who goes to kind of Dark Places very fast if he ever did that I would be like it would be very strange he was in the unbinding yes he was um he was a 3D scanning guyan scan oh yeah yeah he's really funny really sweet just really lovable light-hearted person and the hypnotist sits down shakes his hand immediately under pulls him handshake induction it like confuses your brain immediately immediately it happens so fast handshake inductions are this thing that the hypnotist will use and it's meant to kind of they go in for a handshake so give me your hand i'm trying to get you to do it they go in for a handshake and they'll take their other hand and they'll take your hand and put it right over the palm of your face and it's it's meant to immediately confuse you because you're like what the heck is going this is so strange so it changes the brain and it immediately puts the brain into a different state and then some people who are susceptible to handshake inductions will then kind of fall into that hypnotic State very easily and and he was a person who

1:16:00

immediately was was under and he he didn't give him nearly as much of a of a like leading phrase as I expected it was very very much like open world he let him sort of go through his own experience he immediately is under and the hypnotist says you're in a field and there's a giant screen like a drive-in theater and and you see a light in the sky and that light is coming down and you know that that light is going to take you and that's the only thing that he gave him and this guy we thought he was like we thought he was playing along until he started to weep to cry and because the extraterrestrials he could see them behind a a kind of like an opaque uh door and they did not look like gray aliens they looked like they didn't have bones they were kind of like octopus type things and he knew that they this is the part where it got weird and it changed my mind about what hypnosis is actually doing he he said

1:17:00

they were aware that he wasn't supposed to be there and he was telling us things we weren't supposed to know and then the hypnotist like looks at me and goes I'm you know should I have the Wall come down so he can describe these things and we're like well [ __ ] yeah of course pulls the wall down guy almost has a nervous breakdown says they're coming to me they know what I'm doing I'm scared I'm scared I'm scared so he pulls him out there were people in that field with him when he came back there was a girl missing from that field so there's a part of him that's like gone he had night terrors for the rest of the trip it was actually the the experiment that broke the project because everybody got too nervous about what was happening yeah and he had night terrors constantly about alien abduction experiences and then he started seeing UFOs yeah and he also the the other interesting thing is he has no memory of the actual hypnosis experience at all so he doesn't remember any aspect of it he doesn't remember what happened the scenario his experience the things that he like went through it's completely gone but all and

1:18:00

when you tell him like you know you didn't used to believe in aliens right he's like what yeah he like no they are absolutely real like I've seen them like he's seen UFOs in the sky he sent us images of these things he's had his own yeah experiences we show the original experiment in season two of helier and then we recreate it a little bit differently as a way to kind of pull valuable information that no one should know out of The Ether and use that in the case and it worked it worked we sent Carl feifer our director because he's sort of the eyes of the audience and he started giving us premonitions of things we wouldn't see or know about until the following day yeah like very very distinct descriptions of places images that that would be like just in the place that we would be going to we didn't even know we were going to that place the next day it just happened that

Government involvement

you know someone was like come and meet us here and a lot of the things that he had talked about the same thing happened and we also tried it with Connor our friend Conor who also and it's not in

1:19:00

helier but we have the footage who also had his own really really unique experience and very weird things have come out of that interesting also did it change your perspective both on hypnosis and what it's doing to the brain and also on alien abductions like does yeah like to me it makes me think that maybe alien abductions are more of like the astral body being taken bingo bingo I think that when you when you talk to there are experiencers and abductees who believe that they're physically being removed and taken but when you talk to most people who have consider themselves experiencers and who are having these strange experiences I think a lot of them understand that it is happening on that astral level that there's something it isn't necessarily maybe their physical bodies that are being taken but they feel as if they're aspects of themselves that are being kind of removed but it's it's pretty common when you when you really start to kind of talk to people about it their experiences are often very astral and it's given us context for like classic cases where hypnosis has been used so

1:20:00

for example you know Betty and Barney Hill they were really the first widely Abdu publicized modern abduction case you know they were hypnotized to afterwards after that experience to tell you know people what they experienced the weird thing is though is that the guy who got them their hypnotist was a friend who worked for the military and so I think that there is a very strong possibility that hypnosis has been used in cases to maybe make people not think they saw what they saw maybe they saw military spacecraft or maybe they were you know there's a case that happened in South America a couple years before Betty and Barney the vs Bois case where this man was abducted and like you know had sex with an alien woman and like had all these weird stuff going on to him and it comes out if you actually look at like what the US government the C was doing in that part of the country at that time it's almost conclusively proven that they abducted this guy and like made him think it was aliens yeah

1:21:00

there's information Declassified stuff I totally believe that my own grandfather he was in the Air Force and they would get one day off if they volunteered for certain like experiment oh my god wow so to get a 4-day work week he was one of the LSD experimen wow and they didn't know for a long long time that it would have any psychological or physiological effects on people and so he had been like years later they called him and whoever else was you know still living from the experiments back down to the base to basically like have the debrief to see what effects my God that had on them but he was left alone for you know years and years and years before anyone was like wait a second maybe we should talk to those people maybe he was a Manchurian Candidate he was waiting to be triggered from the experiment scary that's very scary honestly my he's such a homebody if anyone tried to trigger him to do

1:22:00

anything he'd be like no good for him all the hypnosis nothing would work anymore he'd be like I'm not doing that hypnosis is weird there's a reason that that episode and that experiment is as controversial as it is and and I'm a person who believes you know very strongly that hypnosis can be abused frankly it's one of these things where it's really crazy that we have such a an exploitable thing in our brains and I think it has been exploited and so we're very careful when we talk about it or when we do it to like set it up and be like listen we are doing this everybody's on the same page yeah we know what we're doing we we're aware of the risks when we do this and I think what we we're still you know we still use it we're still using it in in cases and investigations if you want another test subject for alien hypnosis I volunteer like I I truly after hearing that story I mean Sabrina truly like horribly wants it yeah the hyp the hyp he won't do it again we we like that's

1:23:00

that's you know I mean but we know how to hypose people now gre's been practicing let you two do it so it's it' be very we absolutely would I would I would urge caution to people who want to do this type of stuff because we don't really know exactly how hypnosis works and we don't know exactly what it's doing to our minds and there is an element there where it's like but I trust you to that doesn't mean we know what we're doing no I turn the lights off neither do I right you're two people that I would like to not know what I'm doing with that is the kindest compliment anyone's ever given us is so nice I think because the first experience that we had with Jason our friend Jason and his that hypnosis experiment was very kind of frightening for us for him and and recent years we've like everyone's gotten to a good place with it and I think at this point we've done it enough in in certain ways that we've sort of figured out how to do

1:24:00

it in a safe a way as we feel kind of comfortable does that make sense like we I think that if we were to look at the very first time we did it there was very much like a sort of [ __ ] your pants and dive in sort of thing where we were like let's just see what happened at this point now we're like we kind of have we have lots of bumpers in place so that no one's you know hitting the wall too hard you learned yeah exactly learned exactly okay so while Sabrina may or may not convince you to hypnotize her one of your well I learned this in your first season of Hellier that you guys when you first went Bigfoot hunting you didn't really entirely believe and you thought it was going to be kind of silly and like maybe you'd make fun of it but then

Hunting Bigfoot with celebrities

things started happening and then you know just in the past couple years you took Jeff Goblin Bigfoot hunting we did it was how do you even say that s all loud and it be real it's the weirdest thing yeah we started so Greg back in 2005 he looked in the weekly

1:25:00

world news there was a guy in his very grocery store yeah in my tiny little town of toy Pennsylvania very rural town in Pennsylvania and I love the weekly world news I'm sad it's not in the grocery store line anymore I picked it up and you know you know it's all fake but in the back they have classified ads and I saw a classified ad for the almyra Bigfoot watch and I was like alra 20 minutes away from here this there's a phone number here but there's also an address and so like we got our friends together and we went to the address and it's in like a high-rise building with like doctors and lawyers and therapists and then there's the amyra Bigfoot watch and we went up and we get we get to the door and I hear yes and I'm realized this guy's watching a Bruce Lee film in this thing this is like later in the day and we like look at each other and we're like oh my God what are we going to expect here yeah and I was like well [ __ ] it we knocked on the door he opens

1:26:00

the door and this giant guy he immediately his face lights up and you can tell immediately oh he's living in this room like this he's just renting this like business he's got a cop there he's like got a little cook plate and there's a giant map of Bigfoot sightings on the wall in crayon so good and classic classic was like here we go and like I know you you're the Ghost Hunters come on in and we went on a big we planed a Bigfoot hunt with this guy he handed a bunch of kids loaded guns he literally did so Jesus this is the origin of where how Bigfoot kind of came into our lives was with this this man who took Greg out a very Greg and his very young friends into the woods with loaded weapons like a Gren he gave him a grenade like literally it's the scariest thing you can possibly imagine I cannot believe no one got injured I can't believe it either some it's incredible that no one was hurt long story short yes I'll s there's I made an hourlong document it's

1:27:00

very cute and very funny that is not available anywhere I'll send it to you guys if you want to watch it great please of those initial investigations he told us like you've got five shots save the last one for yourself if you don't kill it and big Bigfoot's just gonna crazy stuff like that to tell kids wa but oh my God we had an experience and we found Bigfoot tracks and we all like looked at each other like holy [ __ ] maybe this like insane guy is onto something yeah and it sort of became this really interesting Road where we've gone out in the field with so many different types of Bigfoot investigators and the all different kinds of walks of life from the initial guy who had guns and wanted to shoot it to later on you know we've met uh a set of Bigfoot investigators their names were Dallas and Wayne and they had a very different approach to Bigfoot it was was very kind of new Agy and so we wanted to kind of have all those different types of experiences but what we realized is that regardless of the experience often times we were

1:28:00

having strange paranormal experi around Bigfoot s around Bigfoot sighting so it with every time we would go out into the field with one of these people I think initially we wanted it to be silly and then we were all like by you know 2 in the morning hiding in the car while like beasts scream out of the woods and you're just like this is not real like how is this real we did an episode of Finding Bigfoot we did with the Finding Bigfoot guys because they would not touch like Supernatural sightings with a 10- foot pole they're like no it's an Undiscovered primate it the woow woo stuff we don't get down with and I tell you what it couldn't have work better because we were in the field with them yeah and we were in a place that was supposed to be haunted and there were Bigfoot sightings there what was it jackass Springs I think it was called we were in we got California we were in Mount Shasta for two weeks and Shasta is a really interesting place because there are tons and tons of crypted and UFO and Bigfoot sightings but like Greg said they tend to be weirder and often when you talk to a lot of Bigfoot and cryptologists they're very much a flesh

1:29:00

and blood creature they don't really like it when you bring paranormal things into it but the weirdest part is the more you dig into Bigfoot the more you realize that a majority if not more than the other cases have these very strange paranormal elements so Bigfoot appears and disappears Footprints appear and disappear they believe they're coming out of port And Shasta is this place where a lot of that really really really weird stuff is sort of contained um within that the mountain right during that shoot all of the electronics fried yeah and the Finding Bigfoot guys are like nothing has ever happened in like 10 seasons of this show that has never happened before and I we were like w that happens to Ghost Hunters all the time we can tell you what's happening listen we we that's why you brought us here they know what that we know what that is so then when we got invited by Disney to do a investigation of Bigfoot with Jeff gold BL we're very upfront and honest with these people where I was like listen we are not normal Bigfoot Hunters like we don't have hats we don't have the cool have the big foots we

1:30:00

can't track Footprints or anything I'm not gonna like you know smell you know feces and know that it's from a Bigfoot yeah and they were like no no no that's why we want you guys to take Jeff out like we want you to have a fun time and so we had the eye of every Bigfoot hunting organization on us as we are taking most beloved celebrities into the woods to tell them Bigfoot's probably a ghost it was incredible we they brought us so we we were filming in the Redwoods and a lot of Bigfoot sightings in the Redwood Forest they didn't want us to meet Jeff before filming because they wanted to get your natural reaction because he's like a magical being so they just led us into the Redwoods and they were like just wait here and you'll see the camera crew coming so Greg and I are standing on like a 3,000 year old tree just in the middle of this place it doesn't feel real and we start like hearing a voice and off in the distance is just it's just Jeff Goldblum and he's walking towards us and he was like what's more paranormal here I I literally it's as

1:31:00

rare it's as rare as Bigfoot sighting as to see Jeff Goldblum like walking through and he was so into it and he was he wanted to have the experience and he leaned in and I love that he looked into the dark mirror like there's a whole bunch of stuff that didn't make it into the yeah that footage is probably because I think it was a little it got a little too real and one of the mandates from Disney was we couldn't say that Bigfoot exists we couldn't say it's real everything had to be possibility and so we brought a bunch of objects with us too he looked into the dark mirror and he saw his deceased brother yeah and he started crying and like the crew was all very affected it was wild God so there it was a really weird shoot still the weirdest thing I think we've ever done is hang out with Jeff boam man now I'm regretting not fully looking into the dark mirror cuz I crossed my eyes during it cuz I was scared we can make that happen yeah we could still do it cuz we

The clown motel

also were both too scared that we ended up looking at it at the same time which I think impacted you did that's right we didn't really experience it properly

1:32:00

yeah and you were also in The Conjuring house for the first it's hard when you've got like you're just so stimulated yeah you're like oh I don't know what to do yeah we'll make that happen for sure okay I feel like there's a lot of things that we want to do with you now we can we just follow you around let's go oh anytime anytime can we live with you we'll be a part of the museum share your location and then don't be surprised if we show up come on down well now we've been given the approval of light stocking so we are just going to show up that's right you go there you we we'll enable your light stocking we'll give you guys access to the ring cameras you can you watch us be great oh my gosh we have so much fun with you guys oh you guys are the best I'm so glad that you're finally on because it's been not to sound too obsessed with you but oh stop we are though it's been like years and years of us referencing you guys at least man once a month I love you guys we have no

1:33:00

idea who we are at all like we we just Greg and I we're so focused on like investigating and and like keeping in this space as much as we possibly can that we like forget pop our heads up every once in a while so it's good for us to be like oh hi hi everybody like we just forget the fact that you responded to our inquiry about going to the coning house with us and that you didn't know who we were before that and you were just like hell yeah we'll we'll go to a house with strangers yeah haunted sleepover with two random girls sounds great dude we had so much fun it was so great it was so much fun we would love to do it again we'll do it again yes we absolutely will well you guys have an incredible podcast and you have an incredible patreon do you want to talk really quickly about those two well thanks for letting us plug it thanks we uh we have well also we're we're patreon members are you really yeah we listen to your podcast and we're patreon members oh no way gosh I love you guys you guys are so

1:34:00

amazing we love you if the light stocking has already started you guys just didn't know I love it I'm into it apparently it's my thing we have a seasonal podcast that we do called The Haunted objects podcast and every episode we pick an item from the collection we have a very broad definition of of haunted we we consider anything in the collection that has a story attached to it that can affect people as haunted and so everything from you know UFO crash parts to pieces of Betty Hill's dress you know from her the night she was abducted haunted objects that you know seem like classic objects dolls things like that we try to do as much of a de we have an incredible producer our producer Connor Randall and we have lots of other people our researcher Ken mat Matthews and so we get to kind of collectively nerd out and really like go so so deep into the lore and the history and it's great because Connor our producer is so good at kind of bringing in all of the elements of

1:35:00

each one of the objects so that we can get like such a good full round kind of view of it we try to do as much of a deep dive into the objects as we can and we try to pick things that are really wide and kind of across the board we're working on season two right now we're we're hoping to make an announcement very soon season two is gonna be even better than season one yeah but uh if you can find it on anywhere you listen and it's a kind of a video forward podcast so we did a I always laugh because we have the audio option but we have a video option to watch We did an episode on we have a lot of haunted clowns unsurprisingly lots of porcelain clowns wait wait wait oh God is there one back there we so we did an episode on haunted clowns but as far as the video goes we all dressed in head-to toe clown makeup but we didn't reference it ever we didn't reference it at all that's incredible Greg was Pennywise it's horrifying our producer Connor was like hot Jared Leto like it was incredible but there are so many yeah here it is there you go can you already hear like the weird are they jingling in

1:36:00

there I heard I heard jingling sounds we are sent I did hear like music yeah more than any other object people send us people send us porcelain clowns or like clown dolls for obvious reasons yeah they're creepy we have here you go an entire box porcelain clown go ahead open it up that's it's real these are all haunted clowns you want haunted clown SMR ASMR oh my God there's a lot have you guys been to the clown Motel yes did you bring your porcelain clowns we did have you guys been to the clown motel that's what we should that's where we should go that's what we should do we go to the we'll go to the clown motel and then it's like an hour drive to Area 51 oh [ __ ] yeah road do I would love that it is Imagine people for 50 years going to a creepy motel and and putting creepy clown energy into the motel and it's

1:37:00

like if we are capable of creating thought forms that can interact with us collectively it is a a motel full of horrifying caricature thought form clowns that do the weird like people have the weirdest darkest creepiest experiences there but oh my gosh when you kind of come at it from that persp Ive you have like it's a weird thing to explore it's a very weird look into the the fear of clowns it's so much fun though let's do it I'm excited now I really want to do this we have to make it happen done we did an investigation there and you know funny story we uploaded the investigation we do these live investigations for patreon yeah we do there you go so seg you want to take part in it patreon.com param Museum there you go there's the plug you did a good plug thank you amazing thank you both for join joining us this is so fun as always it's so fun to talk to you too anytime anytime you guys are the best you are thank you so much for everything thank you for including us in your tour

1:38:00

it was really cool so many people told us a lot of the stops they were like we we went and saw and it was so wonderful it was just like it felt like a cool community of people kind of all supporting great you guys have a really cool Community we really really do we love them thank you well it wouldn't have been the same without you guys and yeah you've taught us so much I feel like this past year we feel like more confidently treading forward and almost you guys were almost like a launching pad for us to have the confidence to real life like it's one thing to talk about it in your own home buying a microphone it's a whole other thing to actually go into the place so you guys have built our confidence a little bit in that category so thank you we got more more Adventures to go on you we do yes stay tuned do you want to do our sign off with us so we do like a whispered CU you on the other side very slowly do you want to do it with us yeah yeah yeah it's slower than you think it will be okay we will see you on the

1:39:00

other side very spooky