321. OUIJA BOARD MURDER | A True Crime Story of Betrayal and Death | Paranormal Podcast

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Newspapers were inked with headlines like witch slaying, murder by Ouija board. It's 1930. A woman asked a Ouija board for guidance. And it led her to the door of another woman, a hammer in hand. Today, we are going to travel back in time to 1930s Buffalo, New York, where the infamous Ouija board murder took place. Who murdered who? Yeah. Yeah. Very spooky. We finally have microphone stands. What do I do with my hands? dance jazz fingers. My right arm. There

Podcast updates

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goes my bicep on the one side. Shoot. RIP biceps. I'm already moving the mic. We also added some lights. We moved around. I will say Karen moved things around. So, you still have biceps from the heavy lifting. Yeah. And the mic stands. Honestly, these microphones, for anyone who's never held one of these microphones, they're freaking heavy. And so, it's hard to find a mic stand to hold them. We've actually gone through a lot of mic stands in the past. So, when we say we finally found mic stands, it's not like we weren't trying. We tried like four or five brands. Yeah, these are perfect. Yes. Apparently Dax Shepard uses this on Armchair Expert, which is what someone posted in Reddit and then I just bought them. So Reddit is and it's working. I used to be afraid of Reddit and now I love Reddit. Oh, I live on Reddit. I just didn't understand how it looks so dark web, just the main frame and the the layout of it. Well, I guess I also don't know how to search within Reddit because I still Google search and then I just scroll down until there's a Reddit hit and then I click on Reddit and go from there. You know, you can also Google search and then do dash Reddit and I'm sure it will come up

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quicker. Okay. Well, I'm learning things. We're all learning here and we have a really exciting story for all of you today. I was jazzed about it and it's going to be spooky because this is two girls, one ghost. Two girls, one ghost. And we are your ghostesses. That is Karen. I can use my hands. I know. And I like the I like the light behind you. You look so cool. You look so cool. Look at your Tiffany's lamp. Oh, I'm Sabrina, by the way. Hi. Yeah. Oh, I should have lit the candles. It's already failing. Well, we'll do it for the next one. You win some, you lose some. No, we're still working it out. You You know who who we are at this point. Hopefully, if you don't, welcome. This is who we are. And you're welcome. Yeah. And this is um very appropriate. is a tombstone that that says here lies my last [ __ ] That's how we feel about lighting the candles right now. Y I have

Book recommendation

a book recommendation and I feel like everyone's probably be like, "Well, no [ __ ] It's good." But The Housemaid by Freda McFaten. Every single person and

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their mother has been posting this on Instagram stories. Well, because they're making it a movie with Sydney Sweeney and what's her name? Um from Mama Mia and from Girls Amanda. Safe. Yeah. I'm on the second book, so there's three in the series. I am continuously shook by the twists. What is it about? What's the like? So, the concept is this woman, she goes by Millie. She gets a job as a housemaid and she has like a sorted past and has been in prison and stuff. So, like getting a job has been difficult for her. But, she gets this job where she's a live-in housemmaid for this really wealthy family. But not all is as it seems. And then when it seems like it seems like something, it's not all as it seems. Again, okay, I need to read this because this is kind of how I felt with God of the Woods and I loved that book so much. So, I do want to read this one. Is it a horror? Is it like parasite? Uh, not like parasite. It It is thrillery. It's murder mystery, but Freda McFaten

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does such a good job of giving you twists that you wouldn't expect, which is so rare. Like like I feel like even when I try to make up a twist in my head that I wouldn't expect like I can't it's just it's impossible to not just go with the same formula everyone else has done. Yeah. No. So good. I this morning I was reading uh the second book and I didn't want to leave. Like I was like I sorry recording sorry a podcast. You should have canceled and then me to read the book. I would have just started it. I'd be like okay I'll sit in here and read. But today, we're also talking about a

Historical context

story that has such insane twists and turns that I never saw coming. It's a true story, and let's just get into it. There are a lot of photos if you want to watch on YouTube, but they're not necessary to the story, but they're just really interesting to like look at as we tell the story. It's 1930. A woman asked a Ouija board for guidance and it led her to the door of another woman, a

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hammer in hand. Today, we are going to travel back in time to 1930s Buffalo, New York, where the infamous Ouija board murder took place. Newspapers were inked with headlines like witch slaying, murder by Ouija board. But the truth behind these sensationalized headlines is far more tragic and far more twisted than I ever could have imagined. I can't even fathom how this comes to be. Well, because I obviously was drawn in by Ouija board murder, right? As many people would be. Like, is it Slender Man? Is the Ouija board telling someone to murder someone? It's worse. Did the Ouija board murder? It's tell me everything, Sabrina. I'm glad to tell you everything. Who murdered who? The Ouija board murder is a chilling true story that intertwines spiritualism, betrayal, and a monstrous manipulation. Content warning, today's episode does involve a violent and tragic murder in addition to conversations about social injustices, particularly towards native

Introducing Nancy Bowen

tribes. So, before we dive into the story, I want to set up the historical

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and context landscape of this story. It's 1930s Buffalo. Found some cool photos of that time. But like much of the country and world, Buffalo was struggling to recover from the Great Depression. Buffalo was made up a lot of immigrants from Ireland, Germany, Italy, and Poland who had come to Buffalo for work and prosperity. But now they're faced with a really stark reality. Factories were closed, jobs, and food were scarce. But there was and is another group of people who were being systematically dismantled, the native Senica people. The Senica are known as the keepers of the western door and they had long inhabited the greater Buffalo region. But by the 1930s, their world had been drastically altered by centuries of colonization, war, and broken treaties. A lot of their land had been absorbed by what was now the Buffalo cityscape, and they were being pushed to other reservations. And they were often, and this is important in this story, they were often villainized by media and law because the settlers and colonizers were like, "Let's make

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these people the villains so that we can take over more of their land." Right. Yeah. Scapegoat. The Ouija board murder is no exception. So, with this context, I am going to share the story from the perspective of a Senica woman, Nancy Bowen. Perhaps as tragic as the murder in this story is the fact that the details surrounding the involved Senica women are scarce. Like just doing a brief Google search on Nancy Bowen, dozens of articles appear about the murder, but there's no information outside of it and very little information on her history, which is upsetting. But thanks to the Buffalo Historical Society and an American Senica artist by the name of Marie Watt, I was able to find more information on her. And I'll get to Marie Watt at the end. She did this really cool art piece to honor Nancy Bowen later on in the story. Well, I guess not later on in the story. Recently in history, Nancy Bowen was born sometime around 1866 on the Katarugus reservation in Western New York. She was a respected Kauga healer and herbalist. She married the love of

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her life whose name was Charlie Bowen and together the two of them lived a peaceful life and became a really integral part of their community. Together they would travel to Buffalo, New York, where Charlie would sell Sassifras, which earned him the name Charlie Sassifras Bowen or Sassifras. Have we learned about him before? Why does this sound so familiar? I don't know. I don't think so. But I think we did something about Sassifras not too long ago. I think when people sold Sassifras, you just got the nickname, hey, Sassifras. It's a good nickname. It is. And Nancy would sell her herbal remedies. So it was a prime example of indigenous people coming together with the urban city folk and this like blend of cultures and sharing different beliefs and ideas. How long did that last? Yeah. So I wrote it was a example of this mutually beneficial relationship

Seeking spiritual guidance

or so they thought. In late 1929 NY's life was turned upside down when her beloved husband Charlie Sassifrass Brown

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died suddenly. The loss was obviously devastating. It was unexpected and gut-wrenching. And the weight of the loss was near impossible to carry. So Nancy Bowen did what many of us, our listeners, those of you who are listening, would do. She sought spiritual guidance. Remember Nancy herself was a respected spiritual practitioner in her community. And this community was one rich with a spiritual tradition deeply rooted in harmony with nature, a reverence for ancestral spirits, and a very profound belief in the interconnectedness of all things living and dead. So, I'm not a native. I don't have all these practices. I'm not wellversed in their beliefs, but I did want to provide as context that they are very spiritual practitioners. I thought you were about to sing Colors of the Wind cuz that's what I'm picturing that you're going to but I want to provide. But I do really want to sing for all of you. Please plug your ears now. I do love that song. Such a good one. So, I'm not going to sing for you, but I just wanted to give some context. Not that we

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all need context because here we are all big believers in the paranormal and don't need to justify the desire to go inquire or seek spiritual guidance, especially after a loss of a loved one. But when NY's husband passed away, Nancy turned to a friend, a fellow spiritual practitioner, Laya Dimmerson. Laya. I like that name. Millie and Laya. Millie is from the book. But Oh, I'm dude. But Millie is a good name. Laya and Nancy in this story. Laya Jimmerson was born sometime around 1884 on the same reservation that Nancy Bowen was born on. And this was a close-knit community, meaning the two women knew each other. And when one member suffered a loss, the other members of the community showed up in support. I'm really so self-aware of my hands right now. Well, I'm watching them, too, because you're using them so much. My italiano. So, Laya was a school teacher who had been educated in white schools and had become very inshed in a dual cultural lifestyle, spending half of her time on the reservation and the other

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half among the urban landscape. In 1929, at the time of Charlie Bowen's death, Llaya was approximately 45 years old, although some reports vary. And again, this is an issue of like what details seemed important to reporters and what didn't. Another report said that she was 36 at the time. But Nancy Bowen was 66. So Nancy Bowen came to Llaya for support, but not just emotional support, but for spiritual aid as well. See,

The Ouija board session

Nancy felt that her husband's death was a little too sudden. She felt that something was a miss. Laya agreed and suggested that they utilize some spiritual practices to inquire further with the other side. This is Sassifrost who died, right? Correct. He's a businessman. He's making money. He's making trades. He's talking to all types of folk. Yep. Exactly. Plenty of opportunity to uh make some enemies. And he seemed healthy otherwise. So, it was shocking. Laya agreed. And traditional Senica spiritual communication typically involved dream interpretation and

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gatherings and rituals. They did not typically involve a Ouija board. And now this is where it would have been appropriate for us to have a Ouija board here. And the planchet flies across the room. And if you think we're going to play it, you're wrong. Just a prop. But stay tuned because we might have an update on that. Hint hint. So, they didn't typically involve Ouija boards, but at this time, Ouija boards were quite popular in pop culture and becoming quite a phenomenon. They were patented in 1891 and made their rounds during the spiritualism movement. And now, in the 1920s and 1930s, they were very commonly used. And I found this like advertisement for Ouija boards. And I don't know specifically what year it is from, but I think I searched 1930s Ouija board ad and it said special low price offer $1. So they were accessible. Yeah. Even conversion like even if that was like 20 bucks, I feel like that's still right. You could buy a Ouija board, especially if this is something where you're in your own practice like

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you're helping other people connect to the other side. And Laya also grew up, you were saying, in this sort of like limbo of Senica practices and sentence. Yep. And boom. Right. So, Laya, like I said, was living this in mesh life. So, she liked integrating the more Americanized modern practices with her own native ones. So, there she is. She whips out her Ouija board and she's like, "Hey, Nancy, let's use this as a bridge to connect to your beloved Charlie." Again, details here are a little bit unclear, but apparently over the course of multiple seances and Ouija board sessions, something very chilling became apparent. Nancy was apparently correct in assuming something suspicious with her husband's death. Charlie Sassifras Bowen did not die of natural causes. He was murdered. Feels like an old timey like black and white 1920s murder mystery. It does. So,

Identifying the murderer

while not officially documented by Nancy and Laya, the following conversations

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were eventually shared in court after the fact. Nancy and Laya sat in a dim candle lit room, Ouija board between them. Nancy prayed for one last encounter with her late husband, Charlie. She pled for his presence, for his spirit to come through, for closure. That's what she thought she was looking for. She closed her eyes, took a breath, and together her and Laya placed their fingertips on the planchette. A chill ran from the top of her head to the soles of her feet. The energy in the room became charged. There was a connection formed with the other side. Now Nancy asked to speak to Charlie. She wished to tell him how much love she had for him, how his departure had turned her life upside down, how she missed him, and how her soul achd for his. how despite his absence, he remained a constant in her mind and in her heart. She felt life had grown bleak and gray without him. No contact with the other side and with the deceased is never certain, so Nancy did not know what

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would happen. She could only hope. And then the planchette moved slowly. B E Y O N D beyond. Did that mean they had connected to a spirit on the other side, Charlie? who resided in the beyond. Before long, more messages began to be spelled. T H E Y K I L L E D M E. They killed me. Nancy could not believe it. I I literally have chills. Can you imagine being in this horrifying? So, the two women head to the soles of my feet. Chilly willies. So, Laya and Nancy obviously like you can imagine just like the energy in this room is so palpable and they're

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wondering who who killed you Charlie, right? Nancy is more desperate than ever. She needs these answers. Who killed her husband? Did she have any suspicions or was she going in blind? She was going in pretty bl I mean she had suspicions that there was some type of foul play but who the trainer was. Yeah. In what was surely the most intense and yet clear communication with the other side. The two women received all of the answers they needed. Truly all of them. Charlie spirit continued to share the details of his murder and even named his murderer. A woman named Clotile. Clot was a witch. And not only did Charlie's spirit give this name, he gave her address. Wow. She lived on Riley Street in Buffalo, New York. Was this an affair? So, Charlie continues to describe the woman in great detail. She's short in stature. She has bangs and missing teeth. Of course, Nancy wanted to know more, and she really wanted her husband back. Knowing that

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that wasn't possible, her desires turned to justice. Now more than ever, she wanted justice for her husband's death. No, no, no. Not just death, her husband's murder. Then the planchette went still. The candles flickered and it appeared that Charlie's spirit had left the room. Laya and Nancy closed the session and Nancy looked to her friend Laya, perplexed. What the hell just happened? I mean, can you imagine processing your husband's death is one thing, and then learning it's a murder and all of this information. like I wouldn't know what to do with it. And also on top of that, I would have assumed that it was like a fellow businessman and to hear that it's this witch woman. You're like, well, why in what scenario did you cross paths with her? There's so many questions. There's a lot of emotions I'm sure she's going through, right? What happened next?

Ominous letters arrive

according to legal documents and sources available online is that Laya told Nancy she actually knew someone by the name of

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Clild. It's a French name. Apologies for mispronouncing it. Clild Marchand who happened to live on Riley Street in Buffalo, New York. If you have alarm bells ringing, great, you should. Taken a back and likely in shock, Nancy left the seance and returned home, continuing to live her days in this fog, going through the motions, trying to process the information she learned. And then she received a letter in the mail. This letter stated that Clild Martand was a white witch who had cast a spell on Sassifras Charlie Bowen out of jealousy. Did she receive this letter in the mail? In this letter. So now there's another party outside of the spirit of her husband coming through the Ouija board confirming the same theory. And this letter is signed by a Mrs. Douly. Nancy does not know a Mrs. Douly, but like you're saying, she's getting another piece of information that is verifying what Charlie's spirit had said through the Ouija board session. This also makes me think of the watcher, too. Like now I'm almost I'm suspicious of the woman

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who was even doing the Ouija board session, too. Good. You should be, Lyla. Now Nancy has all this information. This letter says that the white witch cast a spell on Charlie out of jealousy. Jealousy of what? Was it an affair? More letters from the same Mrs. Julie followed. I could only find this one small photo of the letters received. And I like you can see it's like pretty hard to make out what it said. Oh, but it does it's like a casual letter. Like it's on normal letter paper. Yeah. So, what I think I can read from this letter, and there's some of it that's unclear, but this is what I think it reads. It's dated February 5th, and it says 29, but I think the year is actually 1930, so that might just be, you know, it's a new year. You always write the wrong year by accident. So, it says, "Dear Mrs. Bowen, I have known Charlie for years. He always a great help to me. I am so sorry to say that he is killed by witchcraft. Now you are going to die very soon too with a witch.

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And then there's some stuff that's unclear. Your body unclear in mud. No, there is a woman do made a doll out of you. She made a doll. Grease oil. So the rest is pretty unclear and it's only a small little image of the letter. So it's not the full letter, but these letters are detailing Clile Marchon's actions. As such, her witchcraft didn't work so good. So she Clot decided to kill Charlie. This is also making me curious if there was another person who is this sort of like psychic medium who is doing automatic writing and getting these messages from specifically Sass of Brass like he's watching all this happen and he's trying really hard to to tell right someone there's a lot of confusing questions that come up in this whole story because there's too many players so many players so even further this Mrs. Douly warned in her letters that Nancy would be next and that the only course of action to take in order to protect herself was to kill this witch, Clild Marchand. After the Ouija board

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communications and the collection of ominous letters, Nancy Bowen was so convinced that Clot Marchand had murdered her husband and would soon come after her. She was determined to get

The murder of Clotilde

justice. So on March 6th, 1930, Nancy Bowen traveled to 576 Riley Street in Buffalo, New York, and knocked on the front door to confront Cloot Marchand. She knocked on the door with one hand, and in the other hand, she gripped a hammer. Clot Marchand answered the door. Nancy Bowen confronted her, asking if she was indeed a witch who had killed her beloved Charlie. According to Nancy, Clild was dismissive, but ultimately did verify the claims that she was a witch. And content warning, there is detail of a murder here and also some upsetting information in the next like 30 seconds. Nancy then chloroformed Clot Marchand and beat her to death with the hammer before fleeing the scene of the crime.

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Later that day, 12-year-old Henry Marchand, Clot's youngest son, returned home from school only to discover the gruesome and bloody crime scene. His mother's lifeless body lie sprawled across the first floor landing. Poor Henry ran to the nearby science museum to get his father and two other brothers. Police were called and an investigation began. Now, most times when you look up this story, it starts here where Clot Martan's body is found at the foot of her stairs. And it's the story of a young boy returning home to find his mother dead at the foot of the staircase. From an investigative standpoint, I guess that makes sense that this would be the beginning of the story because that's the murder, the cop, the suspicious death. Correct. So

Investigation and arrest

investigators find her body and for some time they think it's an accident that Clootil had fallen down the stairs to her death. But of course as we know this story is far more complex and far from over. So police and medical examiners

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brought 52-year-old Clild Martan's body into custody. And with the discovery of bloody gashes and the odor of chloroform, they determined that this was no accident. This was murder. The murder hit newspaper stands immediately. Clootild Marchand was a prominent figure in Buffalo society married to an even more prominent man Henry Marchand who was a prolific artist. A little bit of history about Clot. She was born in France either in late 1877 or early 1878. She moved to America with her husband Henry Marchand who was a renowned French American sculptor and diarama artist and together the couple had three children. Cloot was said to be a very supportive wife and mother who took a backseat to her husband's career. A wallflower although perhaps not by her own valition but because society in that time placed women in a role and there was very little to get out of that role and husbands put women in a role too. As is common still to this day the police

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they had their primary suspect was Henry Martand Claudefield's husband. They called him in for questioning, but he had an alibi. And soon after, neighbors reported that they had seen an elderly native woman in the neighborhood, which led police to Nancy Bowen. And I don't know what pieces were strung together to get to Nancy Bowen, but they did. They got to Nancy Bowen. Nancy Bowen was taken into custody and questioned where she immediately confessed to the murder. Wow. Nancy had admitted she killed Clootil Marchand, but she felt justified in doing so because Clil Marchand was a witch who killed her husband and then was going to kill her too. How do you But she has the letters. I was going to say she actually does have tangible proof now because it's not just like, oh, the spirit of my dead husband told me through a talking board, right? She also received a letter and she has a witness which is Laya, right? So she's sad obviously she's remorseful and sorrowful but she also feels justified. She's like I did the right thing. I had

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to do this. This was the only course of action I could take. So she's fearing for her own life now too. Absolutely. And the police don't typically go ah yes the old witch killed my husband so I killed the witch alibi very seriously. But then they began to uncover an even more wicked plot and an even more

Uncovering the manipulation

malevolent manipulation. So Nancy disclosed the events that took place following her husband's death, the Ouija board session, the letters, and it became clear that Llaya Jimmerson had taken advantage of her grieving friend for her own murder plot because Llaya Jimmerson was romantically involved with one Henry Marshand Clot's husband. Oh my god, isn't this wild? also so [ __ ] up because she knows that they have children. But it gets even more [ __ ] up. On March 7th, 1930, both Laya Jimmerson and Nancy Bowen are arrested for their murder of Clild Marchand. And this is when it becomes sensationalized

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and it's like in all of the headlines and all of the newspapers are villainizing and they're using the word Indian women and like magic witches and just all these negative stereotypes about the Senica native tribe that was common place during this time and kind of like I was saying the marginalized systematic injustices that were which Clild said that she also practiced a bunch It's here. Yeah. Yeah. But the case was far from closed and the truth was yet to be revealed for something much more malicious lay beneath the surface. So now both Nancy Bowen and Llaya Jimmerson are in custody accused of first-degree murder. And then the true story begins to unfold. Like I said, Henry Marshand was a well-known artist known for his highly detailed wax figures and diaramas. His art though is absolutely unimportant to me and I refuse to show it on this podcast or give him any time

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of day because this man deserves no recognition. So the newspapers are printing Henry Marchand and Clotil Marchand this like beautiful happy family now destroyed by native or like by Indian women, magic women, witches, but their family was not this perfect family that newspapers were painting them out to be or him out to be. Henry often recruited Native American women as models for his art. And he prided himself in seducing said models to a point where he bragged about his sexual conquests claiming they were a professional necessity. Oh god, that reminds me of that like modern day that one photographer. I think it happens a lot. Yeah. He like photographs all the celebrities naked, but like he has his own books where like all of his models he's like literally having sex with. It's disgusting. Oh yeah. And he's clearly taking advantage of his power position and taking advantage of women who are mostly from marginalized communities. Yeah, he was a sexual predator. He crossed boundaries,

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took advantage of women. And Llaya Gimmerson actually was one of the many models that Henry Marshand had worked with and he took advantage of her, manipulated her, led her to believe he

The master manipulator

loved her. Henry had very little regard for this these women as becomes very very clear in the trial. He had no intention of leaving his wife for any of them, but that did not stop him from enchanting them and making them fall in love with him. Like I think he enjoyed that. It was like a game for him. That poor Clate. I know. He led Laya Gmerson to believe that he would leave his wife for her. Laya was deeply and profoundly in love with Henry. She wanted to be with him forever. But in her mind, the only thing that stood in her way, in their way, was cloaked Marchand. I believe Henry made Laya believe that the only thing standing in their way was cloth. Like he he is a master manipulator. He knew what he was doing.

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He was taking advantage of all these women and he loved the fact that they loved him and like they almost would do anything for him. So when it's just like tail is old as time. Can we just collectively stop with these people? Right. The end of men. The lesson of this story is men are bad. It's It's just like the same type of guy exists in every single generation. I know. And people Well, now think about like the way he acted and like then it passes on to like his children and then you know it just Yeah. going on when you watch when you read Housemmaid there's a lot of that as well. Like it's just generational trauma passed down and continuously someone needs to stop it. This is how Laya is feeling and she has been led to believe the only obstacle that is getting in the way between her and Henry being together forever is clutiled. So when her friend Nancy Bowen comes to her convinced that there is some aspect of foul play in her husband

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Charlie's murder, Laya saw an opportunity and she took it. Laya planted the idea that Charlie was murdered by Clotile Martran during the Ouija board session. She had manipulated the planchette to spell out messages like killed clotiled buffalo. When Nancy took no action immediately, Llaya took it a step further and wrote letters to her friend Nancy signed Mrs. Douly. At first, the letters reiterated what the Ouija board said Clot had killed Charlie. But Laya had to then heighten the stakes. Not only had Cloot killed Charlie, but she was now going to kill Nancy next. The only way to stop all of this from happening was for Nancy to kill Clotile herself. And that is exactly what Nancy Bowen did. She killed Clotile Marchand. And I am sure there was a brief moment where Laya thought everything had gone according to plan that Henry would come running to her, wet her, and they would live happily ever after. But no, instead, as is typical, Henry pretends he doesn't even know her. He gives zero shits about

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Laya. He's ice cold to her, not a care

The trial and verdict

in the world. Then the trial of Nancy Bowen and Llaya Jimmerson begins in May 1930 and lasted about two and a half weeks. And I'm going to stand very firmly on this. Justice was not served. Nancy Bowen plead guilty to Manslaughter, but most people already saw her as a sympathetic figure, which I do really appreciate because they could have really villainized her and Ila a lot more. But she was coerced. But she was coerced. She was this 66-year-old woman who was grieving the loss of her husband and just even this picture of her like you look at this photo and you just want to give her a hug. It was Yeah. It's hard cuz I think I would feel differently if it were strictly her seeking revenge but she was also her own life was threatened too. Exactly. So So people do see Nancy pretty sympathetically. that she's a griefstricken elderly woman who was taken advantage by a lovestricken jealous woman that she thought was her

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friend. The Buffalo Times wrote that Nancy told her story as if recounting a vision, convinced even still that she had acted on the side of righteousness, which in her reality she did. She apparently had also asked another man by the name of Victor Tugun to kill the witch because it was believed and also told to Nancy that this witch Cloot which in quotes had marked Victor Tugun's pregnant wife for death as well. But Victor Tugun was working and didn't want to lose time by killing Cloot. So Nancy went to do it herself. Newspapers loved this Ouija board witchcraft angle. There's a bunch of photos that I'm including in here that have newspaper headlines. Pagan rights of 500 years ago still practiced. Indian models trial for witch murder reveals. Confessions of Indian women say Ouija board magic forced killing. They're just like really leaning into it. Yeah. There's like virtually zero headlines that focus on

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Henry and his part of it, right? And instead of just focusing on this like one specific individual who is completely manipulated by this man, they're instead using her entire culture and community. Exactly. I will say and I am grateful for this. People were pretty disgusted by Henry when like a lot of stuff comes out and I'll share more about that in a minute. So they do include his illicit affairs and betrayals, but that's not what they're leading with. They're that's like buried in the story that you have to read. Yeah. and consensus agreed that Henry was perceived as a disgrace and there was very little sympathy for his actions, but aside from like his career kind of dwindling and becoming less of a prominent figure in Buffalo, he had no punishments for his actions. I'm not surprised, but wow. It is said that during the trial, everyone in the courtroom fell silent as Nancy Bowen shared her tragic truth and then that Llaya Jimmerson broke down weeping with remorse and that Henry Marshon was

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utterly tonedeaf, egotistical, making comments like, "In my work, it was necessary to win the confidence of my models. Sometimes that meant personal relations." According to the Associated Press, there were audible gasps when the artist admitted his professional necessities. a euphemism no soul in the room failed to understand. Yeah, cuz what the [ __ ] Also, like if you're hiring models, then that's their profession. If you have to have sex with someone and create a relationship and make them romantically involved with you in order to get them to pose the way you want, then that's not hiring a model, right? No, he wanted that's taking advantage of someone that you are spurring up a fake relationship with. He wanted to take advantage of them. Yeah. Disgusting. At the conclusion of the trial, Nancy Bowen was sentenced to time served, meaning she was released at the end of the trial, having spent two to three months in jail while awaiting the trial. She returned to the reservation and lived quietly until her death a few years later. But again, as she's

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released, all of these newspapers are like, "Witch trenles back to reservation." It's like upsetting. But her plans were to go home and plant corn, which I think is very wholesome, and I appreciate that for her. Laya

Aftermath and legacy

Jimmerson was acquitted and while she was responsible for the coercion of the murder during that time emotional manipulation was not enough for a conviction whereas today that would absolutely be and and I do while I have sympathy and empathy for Laya and her situation she is at fault. I still very much believe like she has responsibility in this. Laya went on to marry and lived not far from the reservation in Parisburg, New York until she died in 1972. And then Henry Marshand, perhaps the most infuriating aspect of the story is that yeah, maybe his career was destroyed after his wife's murder, but he was never convicted of anything. And after the trial, mother trucking Henry Marshand goes on to marry his deceased

36:00

wife's 18-year-old niece. If he wasn't already dead, I'd say let's kill him, right? The [ __ ] I know what a disgusting man. Yeah. He was never prosecuted and lived a secluded quiet life with his child bride until he died in 1952. Thank you for writing child bride because literally newspapers of the day sensationalized the story framing as a bizarre tale of witchcraft and savagery. But the real horror was not supernatural. It was human. Specifically, it was man. So I want to honor both Cloot Marchandanda and Nancy Bowen. They were both victims in this case. I do believe Laya was manipulated, but like I said, jealousy is not an excuse to lead someone else to commit murder. Clotila Merchant was apparently a real artist, but had put her gift aside to allow Henry to pursue his. I couldn't find any of her paintings, but they were apparently exhibited once in 1930, but there's no photos of her paintings. I know. In 2022, artist Marie Watt, who I mentioned in the beginning

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of this episode, created a project aimed to revise Nancy Bowen's story, and in quotes, place it in the context of what was happening present day to reflect those who have directly experienced death, incarceration, and familial community trauma as a result of entrenched racism. The project included two neon signs spelling out Nancy Bowen's name hanging on the exterior facade of the Buffalo History Museum. Oh, that's lovely. That's a nice tribute. And as this is a paranormal podcast, I think we can agree that the spiritual realm was invoked and played a very important role in this tragic murder. But it was the devilish cruelty of the living that led to Clild Martan's unjustified end. Holy [ __ ] Doesn't that

Psychics and scams

take so many twists? So many. I also wish I was a a detective back then cuz as soon as that letter came in, I was like, Lyla, right? I would have caught her fast, right? Maybe before the murder. But that's just me in hindsight, right? Looking at what you've written, right? I definitely wouldn't have. But

38:00

like you can really see it from NY's perspective and like Well, and also like at the time just so many different cultures and yeah, just being a a woman at that time and an elderly woman and already just so much going on and like she's friends with Laya. Like she sees so much. I'm actually shocked that her friendship like it seems like Laya was so in love with this man. I'm actually shocked that she didn't try to like parade that information around and that Nancy didn't already know about him. Well, I think it's because Henry was like, "You can't tell anyone about our relationship." You know, he was so good at I mean, he had relations with how many women? We don't know. We don't even know the extent of it, but he was bragging about it. And so I'm sure just the power he had over them and their lives and the control, he leaned into that. This actually also for the kids. I know. I mean, this is interesting because it does bring up another conversation about the way that some

39:00

people have used spiritual communication to manipulate. Mhm. And there are stories of famous people losing loved ones and then these like self-proclaimed psychics and mediums say like, "Oh, your loved one has come through to me and has this like ominous warning that they need to share with you." Or even in so many different crime and missing persones. There's people and like yeah, there's the the rogue psychic that actually does get the correct information, but it's kind of just like what we talk about where it's like when we want to go get a reading, how do you know that someone is legit? such an easy profession for people who are fake to kind of go in and pray on people and like what are you gonna do be like well I think this information that you give me on my future is false so give me my money back like that it doesn't work like that so it does actually one of our listeners recently sent us a DM on Instagram and she had gone to see a psychic and the psychic was like or a medium a spiritual practitioner of some kind and this woman

40:00

was like you have a curse on you I'm not going to charge you for your reading I'm just going going to charge you for the supplies I need to buy to remove this curse from you. And like the supplies cost like $5,000 or something like that. And our listener thankfully didn't give the full amount. She gave like a deposit which still is unfortunate. And then things got even shadier and sedier and the psychic was like now I need to borrow your car and all this stuff. Okay. And then you take them to small claims court. Yeah. So it is one of those things where unfortunately because with the paranormal and spiritual communication it is hard to verify the authenticity of people. There are con men and women out there who are taking advantage of your emotional state, right, for their own benefit. Because some people go and get readings for fun, right? Like Salem in October, everyone wants a reading. It's just funsies. But there are people who Yeah. When you go, you're looking for

41:00

something. You're looking for emotional validation on like a path or an issue that you're having and they can pray on that. Yeah. I want to say like there were some kings who had their own oracles, right? Yeah. And people who just make Yeah. every decision based on But it's like if you find someone who is legit, I'd be so tempted too. But it's finding someone who's legit that sometimes is difficult. And I feel like everybody who has a story about someone who was really legit, you're like, "Who did you go to?" And they're like, "I can't remember." Right. Like what? Yeah. You don't realize how rare it is until like after the fact, right? But yeah, I think this is just like a a caution to those of you who are listening to always do your due diligence. Never give a psychic medium money beyond like the reading cost if they're like asking you for an absurd amount of money and saying like the only way for a curse to be removed from you is if you pay me $5,000. Red flags. Yeah. If you have a curse on you, here's a free tip. Join

42:00

our Discord. There are so many practicing witches. There's literally like a coven that exists within two girls from that has nothing to do with us and our abilities, right? It is people who actually practice and have really good advice for you, your culture, however you practice and will help you come up with things to rid yourself of these curses or can direct you to like what is appropriate and normal for someone who is given giving these offerings. Exactly. So, seek guidance there because just blindly spending money on people like this. Yeah, you do. you can get yourself in some hot water. It does also make me like upset because I'm thinking about this is like what would go through my mind is what if this person is a legit psychic medium and if I don't pay them the money cuz like they're taking advantage of me, they they do put a curse on me. That's my like worst case scenario brain going down these rabbit holes. Not that I would give them the money in that situation, but like if you give the money, then they're going to keep asking and keep asking like you're just I know you're better off saying no

43:00

and taking the hit of the a potential curse, which will then negatively affect them. Comes around goes around. Yeah. Anyway, this is Yeah. That is the story of the Ouija board murder, which incredible. And I also was so surprised. I've never heard of it before. It reminded me of the Ouija board escape that the like prisoners had done. But then it also was shocking to me when I was googling it how many news stories, smaller news stories there are about people like claiming a Ouija board caused them to commit a murder. Well, okay. Is that them trying to set themselves up for an insanity defense or does now I might Well, I'm not planning on murdering anyone, but like please don't. Like I might use that. This is recorded. This could go into evidence. Well, here's the thing. I'm not going to kill anyone. But yeah, know that makes me think that it might have been like an attempt at setting up. Yeah, I didn't read into it that much, but I did save a link for a future episode, so stay tuned. Okay, so I did not know what your

Listener Ouija story

44:00

story was about yet. I picked a Ouija board story that kind of has to do with relationships and love. Well, how perfect. Here we go. But this one ends a little bit nicer. That's good. We like that. This is from Margie. Hey gals, I'm currently binging trying to get caught up and I'm listening to Encounters 127 where Julia shared her mother's experience and the board gave the name of her future husband. So, this reminded me of what my dad always told us happened to him when he was young. And I'll preface by saying that by the time my younger siblings and I came around, my dad was a pastor and the story of a Ouija board was a warning to not mess with these things cuz they can mess with you back. Yeah. Any form of divination and communication, it's you're opening yourself up. Yeah. So, Dad and his fianceé, Glenda, were at a party and someone brought a board out and they all got around it to play. The obligatory first question began, and when it was my dad's turn to ask the question, the man who made me the smartass that I am said, "What's the name of the woman I'm going to marry?" And the board spelled out,

45:00

"D." And he says that he and Glenda just laughed together and then went on with their lives. So, cut to years later and my dad and Glenda got divorced. A whole lot of mental and physical abuse, not to mention the fact that she got pregnant while he was in the Navy overseas. Oh [ __ ] Okay. So, when he was telling us this story and got to the name that the board had given him all those years before, we realized that it had given him our mom's name. Her name is a misspelled version of Diane because her dad was filling out the paperwork for her birth certificate and he spelled it like it sounded. So he left he left off the silent letters at the end. No. So D I A N Diane. That's the only Ouija board story I have because I won't play. I'm way too afraid of what it will tell me. But we lived in a poltergeist house for a long long time and I was the target of most of the activity almost every single night. So I didn't want to give it a voice. Chicken butt that I am. Stay spooky ladies. Margie. This is amazing.

46:00

Right. And of course it's a it's like a Ouija board at a party. So he and his fiance Diane who are about to get married are like you mean not Diane or Glenda. Yeah. Yeah. They're just like joking around thinking like how silly this means nothing. And it probably did feel like nothing for years because they did get married cuz they got married but it was about his second. That is wild. Can you imagine when he when he met her the shock he probably felt right? Like he saw her across I don't know what how they met but saw her across the room. He's like, "Wow, there's something about that woman. I'm drawn to her." Hey, what's your name? Diane, but spelled D I A N D A N. Like, wild. And it does make me wonder how long it took him to make that connection. And also interesting that now that he's a pastor, he tries to tell that story as a warning against Ouija boards. If anything, that promotes them. But I'm like, I get me a Ouija board right now. Right. Like, oh, spooky story, Dad. You were told your what we all asked. Like, what's the name of our

47:00

future husband? What's the name of our he was your child? Like these are the things that like when we're 16, we're writing in our journal saying we hope this happens. And he did it on a Ouija board at a party with his first Beyonce. That's so wild and so cool. Yeah.

Conclusion

Actually, okay, we need to talk real quick about our investigation that we did in the room in here. Oh, yeah. So, if you missed it, in encounters 278 at the end of the episode, we did a little ghost tube session to communicate with the spirits in this office to try to understand what spirit had scared Noah. A lot of people have like put their comments in the episode trying to like ask us questions and then their theories on what happened. Multiple people asked if there's a book on the bookshelf that is written by a Keith. But then another person, and this kind of seems like the most true, was like the spirit was telling us that the spirit that scared Noah was just a visitor passing through and that that spirit's name was Keith, but that he's not here. Oh, like that Keith just

48:00

passed through and scared Noah accidentally. Not that he was a bad spirit, but maybe the way he appeared or something like that. Well, that could make a lot of sense, too, because after I gave my light threat to the office that night when I was putting Noah to bed, I saw feet going back and forth like pacing in front of his door like under the crack and then the baby aquarium turned on. But it it felt good. It felt positive like someone was just like worried maybe about my upset with the spirit realm. Yeah. So, it didn't feel like the same thing. But it was also weird cuz it's like I feel like I'm pretty sensitive to these things and and my mom too. Like my mom always hears everything and Noah's so scared and we were both right here and we're like what just happened? But that was so different than anything you'd ever experienced in this house, right? So does that. That's why it made sense to me like oh it just was like a one time passing through a spirit. And then a lot of people were like Andy is cursed and haunted. Not cursed. People were like Andy's haunted

49:00

and something's in him. I was like, "Andy, you're People want people look at Andy and think that he should be haunted, but he's adorable and precious and stop talking about him that way. I'm going to be upset." But if he is haunted, it's with good vibes. Yeah. Happiness. The joy of all of our community. The way that you're protective of Noah right now is how I'm protective of Andy. So, back off everyone. Also, wait a second. I just remembered something. One of our listeners met my aunt Diane. Now that Diane came up in that story when it was in Portsouth and it was I don't know like a couple weeks ago. My aunt Diane didn't even tell me. My mom told me. She was like so funny. Okay, so my aunt Diane works at her friend's liquor store or whatever and she this woman like whipped out a wallet and it had a Ouija board on it and then Diane like struck up a conversation like oh do you like that stuff? Like I go I have a niece that is into all the spooky creepy niece spooky [ __ ] Yeah. And the woman knew Two Girls from Ghost. And apparently it gave Aunt Diane a handshake. So Diane

50:00

got a handshake from this listener. I have yet to receive one. I'll give you a handshake. Thanks. Yeah. Nice doing business with you. So clammy. You are. Give us your handshakes and also your ghost stories. Email them to us at two girls one ghost podcast@gmail.com. If you don't watch to this point, look in the show notes. That's where all of the information is if you're wondering. Although you've not made it to this point, so I'm telling this to people who do know. Anyway, but if you're looking for any information about the episode or how to contact us, show notes, description, it's all there. Watch on YouTube if you're not already. We're on every listening platform. And one thing that does really help is rating and reviewing and telling everyone else. Yes, liking, subscribing on YouTube. And also, if you want bonus content or episodes ad free and one week early, join us over on Patreon. There are so many fun perks over there and the community is spectacular. Spooktacular. Spooktacular. Book club is maybe one of my favorite perks. Yeah, we're reading um Ghost Eaters by Clay Mclody, I think

51:00

is his name. And it's like a gothic supernatural book about It's kind of like The Matrix, like if you could take a pill and be able to see the other side. Mhm. We haven't started reading it yet, but it's our next book club book. We'll be reading and meeting on June 25th, which is The New Moon, which I'm excited. Like, how fun. And we'll talk about it then. Thank you to all of you for coming week after week. Don't forget to share your stories with us. And thank you to our editor, Jamie, for helping us cut the fluff. We love you all. And we will see you on the other side. Very spooky.