WICKED WITCH? OR POWERFUL PROPHETESS? | Mother Shipton The Witch of York & The Haunted Cave (Ep 347)

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She could cure a fever. She could aid in childbirth. She even whispered secrets of the future. And she's a woman who grew up in a cave. So today we're going to share the story of Mother Shipton, England's most powerful witch and prophetess. A woman who made countless prophecies that did in fact come true. Damn. Yeah. Yeah.

Very spooky.

Hello. This is Two Girls, one ghost.

Two girls, one ghost. We are your ghostesses. That is Karin.

Hello.

I'm Sabrina. And there's room for Sven.

Mhm. And this. [laughter] Sorry. It just made me think of room for Jesus. Like leave room for Jesus.

Leave a for the Holy Ghost.

For the Holy Ghost.

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Did you say for Jesus? Like at your school? It was like for Jesus specifically.

I think that's what people said, but it reminds me. So I was driving.

I'm such a bad Catholic. I'm like, what's the difference between the Holy Ghost and like Jesus? And

this is not a religious podcast, but I do have, believe it or not, I did go to CCD for years.

Catholic child detention. You know, we're real Catholics because we call it that. [laughter] Um, I was driving here today and I'm like a big Spotify day girl. Like I always listen to my day list and it's usually like some iteration of sad girl Wednesday morning or like you know. [laughter] But I was listening this morning

and all of a sudden I realized like a Jesus song was playing and I was like what? This is not my music.

Sometimes it's hard to

I was so confused differentiate until

it took me like a I was a full minute into the song. Some of the Christian bands are good.

Yeah.

Then you're like, "Wait a second." If you actually start paying attention to the lyrics,

I was like, "These two beautiful voices are singing about Jesus."

Yeah. Your savior. Literally.

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Oh, this isn't my normal Noah con into depression.

It literally went [laughter] from Noah

five music.

I think Noacon was right [laughter] before it.

Oh yeah.

I was actually I was thinking about Noah the other day cuz when I was at Sugar Bush, I went to What? I don't know what sugar bush is, but it sounds like something you would call your vagina. [laughter]

That's a ski mountain. And sugar bush is the name for like like maple syrup, the groves and your vagina. [laughter]

Okay. Well, I was at Sugar Bush for the Kelsey's wedding.

Oh, okay.

Um, we went both mornings, my mom and Brian and Noah and I went to the same place for breakfast and every other song was a Noah Khan song both mornings. And I was just thinking, I was like, would it be so awk like obviously we don't we don't have this experience, so we don't know. But I'm like, is it so awkward for people who have successful music careers to enter a place and hear their own music, but not just one song, but it's like their whole album is basically

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playing and they're just like,

isn't that the goal?

Yeah. But is like, is it celebrated or is it uncomfy?

I mean, I'm so uncomfy when I hear my own voice. So, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, me trying to sing.

I won't I for BS cuz they don't blast ghost broadcasts in cafes.

It's so funny. I brought my friend Lexi through Salem during October. It's now November, but everywhere we went, she was like, "Oh my gosh, you and Karin should do this. You and Kin should do this." And she had so many good ideas.

Do we need to hire her as [laughter] our I was like, she literally here are free ideas. And like we'll just hire you. But one of them, she was like, "All of these stores could be playing your podcast right now during October." And I was like, "You reach out to them. Go ahead. Go ahead."

That's also it's it is a good idea, but at the same I'm like, "Okay, promo wise, that would be a good idea for us, but like me just

as a personal visitor of Salem and like loving the vibes of Salem. I also wouldn't want that. Like I want it to be like the the spooky musician

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in the store." Like it was like playing pop music, like regular Yeah, exactly.

Okay, we'll trade that in. get a suggested playlist from us cuz like that's not

Oh, Stevie Nicks, we're your spooky DJs. Now, speaking of Salem, one of our listeners tapped me on the shoulder. So, shout out to you, Brooklyn, and your mom who came from Canada and they did like a little spooky girls trip. They went to Sleepy Hollow, New York, and then they went to Salem.

How was Sleepy Hollow? I am curious.

Yeah,

because I went that one time, but it was offseason. That's when I realized it was an onseason type of place.

Yeah, I think it is. Salem kind of gets you because when you live here, you're like, "Oh, these spooky places are year round because Salem is year round."

Yeah. But Salem in October is only Salem in October.

That's true. Like the out the vendors outside, the people on stilts.

Exactly.

The cops everywhere.

That's only

they borrow cops from other towns, you

a witch born in the cave

know. But I have a very very I'm so excited about this episode. I didn't know anything about this woman prior and it is I think incredible or I think it's

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also important as baby witches to talk about the witches who walked before us.

Mhm. Mhm. And I think it's safe to say all of us are born, right?

We're all born.

Yeah, we're born.

But not all of us are born in a cave. Mother Shipton, she was born in a cave. Okay, this makes sense because this morning when I was trying to pick out a listener story to read at the end, I just gave Mothership in a very quick Google because I was like, I just need to know like generally the direction of this witch.

Yeah.

And then I didn't go any further than just looking at a picture of her looking into a cave. [laughter]

Then I was like, okay, it's a historical witch. It is.

I'll just choose something witchy.

Perfect. The year was 1488. The place Yorkshire, England. An angry storm raged through town. Thunder shook the walls. Lightning cracked in the moonless sky. And as most people found shelter and safety within their own homes, one woman seek refuge in a place where no one else dare go. A cave carved

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out of limestone cliffs. Within this cave is this woman, her name Agatha. A woman who is alone and fully in labor.

She breathes deeply before a contraction strikes. She lets out a primal scream as she pushes. And almost immediately, as if in tandem with her, the thunder claps. Agatha swears she is the storm. Every push, every groan, every labored movement she makes seems choreographed with the storm outside. There's something about that synchronicity that fuels her, empowers her. This child will be strong, fierce, a force to be reckoned with. This she knows. But soon the world beyond the cave will know it, too. Agatha continues to push. She can tell the baby is coming. And just as she feels this, the storm calms, and a new sound comes forth. But it's not the sound Agatha expected. It's not the cries of a newborn baby. It is a cackle.

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She reaches for her baby, lifting her into her arms with worry. But sure enough, there it is again. A cackle. Her newborn baby is not crying. She is cackling. And these cackles bounce off the walls and travel down the mountainous landscape. And every person in town hears the cackles of this baby girl.

That would be so confusing, so horrifying.

No one will ever forget the night the witch was born. Agatha takes in her newborn baby girl for the very first time, and she's reminded again. She knows this girl will be strong, fierce, a force to be reckoned with. And as if in agreement, the storm returns with a cacophony of thunder and flashes of lightning. For on that day in 1488, Mother Shipton was born and she will forever be remembered. You're such a good writer.

Thank you. The whole time you were reading that, I was like picturing myself reading it on a book. A page. Whoa. I can't even speak.

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In a book.

In a book. Like on the page, the opening page of a book. [laughter] One day you will read my words on a book.

On a book. My gosh. I'll just again I said I was gonna be quiet earlier. I'm gonna continue to be quiet.

I like my coffee.

I am struggling today. Well then just sit back, relax, and hear a ghost story. [laughter]

background & birth

So today we're going to share the story of Ursula Southiel South Mother Shipton. I'm not going to say her last name Southiel very often, so excuse my butchering. She is England's most powerful witch and prophetess. a woman who made countless prophecies that did in fact come true.

Damn. Like, are we sure her mom wasn't witchy, too? Because Agatha is the most witchy name.

I love the name Agatha. I'll tell you her story in a minute.

Oh, I'm glad that we get to hear hers. So, up front, this is a positive momentarily. Mother Shipton was not like most witches we've talked about in the past who were accused of witchcraft or wrongfully convicted. No. But she did face a lot of hardships, which we're

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going to get into, but let's start with Agatha. Agatha Safiel in 1488 was a 15-year-old girl living in Narboro, England, which is a town in Yorkshire. And as legend tells, life had not been particularly kind to young Agatha. She was an orphan trying her best to survive. And I guess on this like one very particularly rough day, she ran off into a field and she found a tree and she just sat beneath it and cried. [sighs] But like also kind of a shared experience. Does not everyone at some point in their lives run to a tree to cry?

Well, and I also was just imagining like this big limbs outstretching tree just like almost embracing her in a hug which is something that she so desired.

And it's also a witchy thing to cry or like tell your woes and your problems to to the trees to nature. I like when people are like I told the fish in the pond like good luck swimming next time. [laughter]

Yeah. Wait, total little tangent, but our editor Jamie just went on her honeymoon

and I asked her how it was and she goes,

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"We went snorkeling every day and there was this little swordfish who we befriended

and kept like every day kept returning and like following them around."

What?

I was like, "That is so magical."

That is so m

and hilarious. A swordfish. [laughter]

That's so cute. So cool. Oh, okay. So, [laughter] she sits there under this tree and she's crying. But as she is sitting there in an otherwise quiet field, she hears something and she looks up and she spots across the field a devilishly handsome man.

You have the devil on your shirt.

Devilishly handsome. He walks toward her slowly and it's as if time slows as he approaches her. Neither of them speak until he stops before her, sinks into his heels, lowers himself to be face to face with her. No room for Jesus. He caresses her cheek, cupping it in his hand, wiping her tears away. Still no words are spoken, but Agatha feels drawn to him like she can be safe with him and

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she leans into his caring hand.

This strange man in the woods. They stare at each other for what feels like hours and his eyes are filled with a softness and a caring that she had been so deprived for so long. So like she's just drawn to him and finally he speaks. His voice firm but comforting. He told her, "You have nothing to cry about. I could offer you a life of ease, warmth, protection. All Agatha has to do is promise to be his." This feels like a fay trap. Is this not the beginning of fairy smut books? [laughter]

Come with me. Come with me. Just promise you'll be

watch my gorgeous body for the rest of eternity. Doesn't sound terrible, does it? Well, Agatha is 15. She's an orphan. And so, like this idea of warmth, safety, never needing to worry. It sounds pretty [ __ ] great. She's like, "Hell yeah, sign me up, handsome man." And what happened next? I mean, a lot of this is because it's 1488. A lot of this is story told over time and

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[clears throat] lore and legend, but it is said that Agatha and the man had sex right then and there.

And then he

I don't like that she's 15.

She's 15. And then this man reveals himself to be the devil. [sighs] It is a devilish thing to do. And as quickly as he had promised the world, he disappeared. How many stories is the devil disguised as a good-looking man? always still happens today. [laughter]

Wait, I just learned, sorry, side tangent. I just learned from my TikTok scrolls that when people are maybe it's part of like the CIA training or something like that, but basically the majority of the people working there are male and they are taught that if a woman approaches you and she is, you know, like way too hot for you

and suddenly starts trying to like smoo and get to know you that it's a trap because there's no way someone that attractive would ever like. So, it's

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like part of their training to know that that it's like

attractive women don't want you.

If someone is too hot for you, it's a trick.

They're not actually hitting on you.

I love that.

I was like, damn, that's kind of like brutal.

Sad, but you know, probably very true for especially during like the like Russian spy

cold war era. Okay, but so this devilish man, devilicious devil, why am I struggling saying devilishly

good-looking man?

Good looking man. this handsome man, he disappears. Which it's interesting because most times we hear deals with the devil, they do get the deal.

Mhm.

But in this situation, he just disappears. So maybe he pretended to be the devil. I don't know. Either way, devil. And next thing Agatha knows, she is pregnant. And now when the town's people discover this, they are, it's 1488. They're like, "Who the heck got you pregnant? You cannot be pregnant as a single woman. You must be betrothed this man." But she refuses.

Woman's a strong word. Sure. Young girl, but I mean back in 1488.

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Yeah.

Got your period. That was it.

Yeah. Agatha refuses to tell them. And so they begin to spread rumors. They say that Agatha slept with the devil, that she's going to give birth to the demon child. And so this is why this story is so it's hard to know what's real because so much of the history and like the origins of Agatha and Mother Shipton

come from rumors spread by towns people. Yeah. And it's also interesting that that's where they would jump to because why wouldn't people presume, especially in a community that is religious, that there was not immaculate conception. Why couldn't it be that? Why is it the devil?

I think women who 1400 years after Jesus was born, [laughter]

but women getting pregnant and not being married was so sinful. Like I think that was so ingrained in that society that it's like you committed an act of sin.

God would never do that to you.

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Exactly. [clears throat]

So they start saying that she slept with the devil and that she was going to give birth to a demon child. So they literally turned their back on her to the point where she

Oh my gosh, this poor girl

is basically exiled from town.

That's why she lives in the cave.

So I guess [laughter]

I know there is a lot of sadness in this, but

she has a time machine, man. But there's no execution and there's no like wrongful conviction of a witch.

What a what a rough rough life.

So Agatha ran to the woods terrified and more alone than ever. And as sunset, the night air teased her with a chill and she found it, a cave. The cave. And she knew she would be safe in there. So months later on the night her contractions began. Storm clouds covered the town. And between thunder and lightning, the town's people heard Agatha's cries of labor. But instead of going to her aid, they just sat there. They listened until they heard that cackle. When the sounds of the baby's cackle struck their ears, that is when they went in search of Agatha. Because now they were like, "Oh, we're

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absolutely right. Agatha did have sex with the devil, and she did just give birth to a demon child that is now cackling loudly through the town,

and they want to go see for themselves."

She named that child Damian. And this is very sad. Again, this is all rumor and conjecture from people who wanted to spread rumors. But according to legend, when they saw Agatha and the child, they did not see a baby girl. They saw a girl deformed, twisted, and strange with red glowing eyes that illuminated like embers of fire. The rumors that spread after that night got even worse and more outrageous. And there's a text that was written about mother shipton in the 1800s that we'll get to more in a little bit, but I just want to read a f like a little section.

This is like slightly reminding me of the story which I can't even remember the name of now where the woman on the ship was pregnant by the pirate or like she gave birth and then the pirate like spared her and

Oceanorn Mary.

Ocean born Mary.

Sorry red hair.

This is just a little quote from the

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text. The baby mother Shipton was at the time of her birth of an indifferent height, but very morose and big boned. Her head very long, with very great goggling, but sharp and fiery eyes, her nose of an incredible and unproportionable length, having in it many crooks and turnings, adorned with many strange pimples of divers's colors, as red, blue, and mixed, which like vapors of brimstone, gave such a luster to her a frightened spectators at the time dead of night.

Well, newborns aren't the most attractive. [laughter]

No, agreed. like

give this child a break a few more months to

cook themselves further

cook themselves from the moment that she was born. I think they just determined that she was a witch. So, Mother Shipton really didn't have a choice, but she ended up becoming this incredible witch. I think it's very safe to say a lot of this is untrue. Maybe she did look a little strange, but like you said,

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a newborn baby. Show me a picture of a cute newborn baby. Like a really actually cute fresh out of the womb.

Yeah. like under two days old.

They all look like aliens. Their heads are not like formed. Yeah, they're like cones.

Yeah, they're they're so puffy and swollen.

Yeah. So, these lies have been spread over the centuries because again, this took place in 1488 and into the 1500s. Records not the same. What is true is that the life for Agatha and her young baby girl was difficult and the people in town viewed them as outcasts and viewed them as working with the devil. But Agatha, she loved her daughter. She named her Ursula. And together, the two of them lived in the cave, surviving the impossible, which made rumors in the town spread even more. They're like, "How are they living in a cave? They must be working with the devil. Like, that's the only way they could survive that."

Yeah. Agatha and Ursula.

Mhm.

It does remind me a little bit of you and your mom in terms of names. Like, I feel like

cuz I was born in a cave, too. I [laughter] feel like I feel no offense

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to your sister and your brother, but Lexi and Graham are

well the Lexus

still not like

Aurora and Sabrina.

Aurora and Sabrina are like witchy and Ursula

and go together

or something there. Well, Aurora is a princess name

and Sabrina is the witch.

The witch.

Okay. So, I have mixed feelings about this because in some ways this is a positive thing but in other ways it's a very tragic thing. So this gossip spread through the town so much that it did eventually reach a church and a religious man who in his mind was like a young child cannot be living out in a cave. Like I need to help these people.

So he goes up to the cave. He finds Agatha and Ursula. This is now Ursula is probably 2 years old.

Oh wow. So they

So they survived in the cave for 2 years at least. Yeah. And in his mind, this religious holy man believes he's rescuing young Ursula from a horrific

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life living in a cold, damp cave. But the tragic part is he did rip a 2-year-old girl from her mother.

Oh, he didn't take both of them.

He does, but he puts the mom, Agatha, in a convent. And then he finds a foster family for Ursula. [gasps and sighs]

And Ursula and Agatha never see each other again.

Oh my gosh.

I know. Burn at the state.

He's a witch.

Witch.

He's a [ __ ]

Yes.

Um,

a witch with a capital B. [laughter]

See, we could put that on merch.

But so, yes, tragically, Ursula and Agatha never saw each other again. And and not too long after arriving at the convent, Agatha did pass away.

Broken heart syndrome

probably. But fortunately, as far as we

Ursula Southeil’s life in society

know, Ursula's foster family was kind and caring, and they they knew Ursula was different, but they accepted her in as far as like they had to.

Mhm.

There was no stopping what what Ursula became. They did not believe that she

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was quite the devil's daughter like everyone in town wanted them to believe, but she definitely was very strange. She spent a lot of time alone. She was almost too clever and she could do things that were uh unnatural. Like the one time that her foster mother returned home to find the front door open and she was like, "Oh no, like is Ursula okay?" And she runs around the house trying to find Ursula. She heard laughing. She follows the laughing and she finds Ursula levitating in the fireplace. That is burning fire. But Ursula is not burning.

What the [ __ ] She obviously terrified, rips her out of the fireplace, like checks her, no burn marks, nothing.

Oh my gosh, this still just reminds me of all the people that are like remembering their childhoods, them levitating or like doing

weird things,

weird witchy things that now people can't tap into

one day. So, these odd things took place a lot inside the home, but then as she got older, they would take place outside of the home. So, she'd be in school and lights would flicker, objects would fly

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around the room.

Okay, Carrie. And she could finish people's thoughts and knew what they were like she could finish their sentences

without them.

That's so Edward Cullen.

It is. And it's also very like Matilda.

Yeah.

But unfortunately because Matilda did not exist in 1488. It wasn't a dream that every child wanted to be Matilda. They thought Ursula was a freak. And

this is so wild cuz like this feels like a madeup story. like it feels like lore, but at the same time like it's very possible that it that all of this

I think a lot of it is fake and dramatized embellished especially because it's been how many years since then but I do think

cuz I'm also like the fact that this whole community is so scared of like a newborn cackling if there was a child levitating over a fire pit or like a fireplace I can't imagine that that would just be like oh no come down here sweetie like don't do that. Yeah. I mean,

yeah, I do think there's some of this is rooted in truth, but it it's hard to

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know what is truth because

people were spreading so many rumors,

right? And I just still am heartbroken for Agatha.

I know. So, everyone starts ridiculing her and mocking her, continuing to call her the devil's child because of her appearance and the way she was born. But instead of cowering, Ursula's like, "I'm going to take a stand for myself and use my powers against you bullies." So, she overheard like an older man and his friend talking about her. One day, like mocking her, the man returns to his house to find the roof of his house had been replaced with like an oversized hat.

I love this. Like, she did things like this. And then she turn

It definitely negatively affects the person, but like they're like petty crimes,

right?

Like turning a hat into a chamber pot instead.

Yeah.

Or turning ale into vinegar.

How powerful is she? My god,

I know. And I feel like she's young, so she's having fun with it.

Again, who knows how valid a lot of this is, but what is true is that while

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people continued to mock her, they started to need her, too. Because as people got sick,

they would turn to Ursula to help heal them. And she would. And she helped them. She would gather herbs and roots. She would make remedies out of her home. She became an expert on the land of nature. She could predict the weather based on the way a flower would open. which I I think is so cool.

That is the type of magic I want to learn.

And like the collective narrative didn't change. Ursula was still very much a witch to the public, but when it really came down to it, they needed Ursula. They went to her for help. She could cure a fever. She could aid in childbirth. She even whispered secrets of the future, which became more and more prevalent as she aged. And by 20 years old, Ursula was making very accurate predictions. And despite the

falling in love

strange dichotomy that Ursula was living, she was ostracized but needed and trusted. She built a life for herself. And sometime in 1512, Ursula met a man, Tobias Shipton. Toby, or

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Tobias was a carpenter, and he was a well-liked working-class man from York, and the two fell in love. Within a few weeks of meeting and getting to know each other, Tobias proposes to Ursula. And what do the people in town think? There's no way Tobias would have fallen in love with Ursula. She's a witch. She must have bewitched him,

right? Yeah. Love spells.

But despite the rumors, Tobias really did love Ursula like so much. He loved the way that she wasn't like everyone else.

Mhm.

Which makes me think a little bit of like Belle from Beauty and the Beast, you know?

Right.

Where's the bell?

She falls in love with the beast because he's not Gaston who's like everyone else and everyone's obsessed with him and like whatever. And Belle's also beautiful and and different and reads smart.

But so he liked that she had a sharp tongue and that she didn't just bow down to men. She was like her own person,

right? She's powerful.

She's a bad

He liked a strong woman. He really did. They built a life together. They lived in marital bliss. They got married and

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for two full years they had a very happy life until Tobias suddenly dropped dead.

Wow. That was I went through like a rush of emotions just now because I thought that he was going to do something to like betray her and I actually felt relief hearing that he just died instead. [laughter]

I also took you through a whirlwind of emotions of like they fell in love. This is great and then he died. It was unexpected. He passed away and there was no cause there. Like it just truly I mean I don't know how old he was but as you

this is not going to do well for my anxiety thinking about [laughter] stuff like this.

This is 1488.

I could start crying

or 1512. I think I think you're okay. Oh my gosh. You know how you were freaking out about the one time on Patreon where the video kept cutting on and then I die or whatever.

I die. Yeah. Recently, there was a video where I was just a disembodied head.

My body was missing.

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How?

I don't know. Like multiple people on a Patreon video.

So, I don't know what's going on, but on Patreon that one video.

That's weird cuz how would that like I understand at least mine where it's like

going back and like glitching or something and repeating the same thing, but for video wise for your body to just

it would freeze and in that frozen shot, I would have no body. It would just be my head. I'm like, am I going to get beheaded? [laughter]

What the [ __ ]

They talk about headless ghosts. What if I'm just ahead? Anyway, things to look forward to.

Now I'm scared. Should we just not leave that here studio? We'll just stay here for

There's no bathroom though.

Pick a corner. [laughter]

Do we have a bucket?

Back to Ursula. So, unfortunately, very tragically, Tobias does pass away. And as you can imagine, the people in town point fingers at Ursula.

Girl cannot catch a break.

She cannot. And for a really long time, she was like, "I'm just going to ignore everyone because I'm just living my

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life, doing my own thing." And then she met this man that she loved. And despite what they said,

she's way more powerful, too. So, it's like,

but despite what they said, she was like, "At least I have this." But now they're pointing fingers and she's just lost the love of her life. She's like, "I can't

I don't want to take this anymore."

Mhm.

So, what does she do? She packs up her

return to the cave & prophecies

things and walks into the woods and she keeps walking until she finds her way back to the cave she was born in. She was immediately overcome with that feeling of safety, familiarity. This cave that she was brought into the world in, it is home. And she spent, I mean, she built a little cottage, but she spent majority of her life, the rest of her life in this cave. Mhm.

Um she continued to create potions and herbal remedies and people would come from far and wide to visit her. People all over knew of the witch in the cave. Mother Shipton, her name was whispered in candle light and even reaching King Henry VIII. There is a documented letter

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that King Henry VIII wrote to the Duke of Norfolk in which he mentions the witch of York. And interestingly enough, Mother Shipton had a prophecy that did involve King Henry VII. It wasn't about him, but it was about a man who was in good terms with the king.

So, according to a text that was published in 1881 based on a pamphlet of Mother Shipton's prophecies that was originally dated and published in 1641, this is what the prophecy said. Mother Shipton warned that when Henry VIII became king that Cardinal Woosley should not accompany him to York, for if he did, he would never return. So now Cardinal Wley gets word of this prophecy and he's like, "Who's this bitch?"

Right.

What does she think? I like

to feel so challenged, the ego in you would be like, "Oh, well, I'm for sure going."

Yeah. So he like wants to prove her wrong, right? So he decides to test this witch.

Mhm.

And he sends three noblemen in disguise to her cottage. But immediately when these three men arrive, Mothership, who's never met them before, looks at

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all three men and addresses each and every single one of them by their real names. And she invites them in. [sighs]

Oh, that's when you don't go in. When you're like, "Oh my god."

Right. That part kind of reminds me of Bel Witch a little bit.

Yeah.

Like that. I don't know. That just like the men approaching to to see what's up with the witch.

And then how did that turn out for them? Half of them died.

Exactly. [clears throat] So while in her cottage, the noblemen are taunting her. They're like, "The Cardinal Wley will come to York and you will be burned at the stake." What does Mother Shipton do? She removes the scarf that was on her head and she tosses it in the fire. That headscarf does not burn. What does she then do? She places a another personal item in the fire. It too does not burn. Then she looks these three men in their eyes and says, "If these will not burn, neither shall I." [sighs] She can't say the same of you. She then tells the three men of their futures.

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She tells the Duke of Suffach, "You'll one day be as low as I am." This man later fell from power and died in disgrace. Oh.

She told Lord Percy that he would do well, but his body would be buried in York's pavement and his head would be stolen to France. Just that happened.

That is okay. That is wild. Like to get all of the details of that.

Lord Darcy, she told that he had built a great cannon. He would go to war, hurt many, but kill none, which is such a disc to him,

right?

And he was later executed after a failed uprising. So he tried to like lead an uprising and

damn.

Yeah.

And the fact so like all of these men are in power and so she maybe could have predicted like just knowing how things kind of play out. to get them details and its even more accurately. So after this all gets back to Cardinal Wley, Cardinal

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Wley is like, I still don't believe her and I'm going to prove her wrong. So he's like, I'm going to travel to York, which is where King Henry VII is already in York. So he's traveling from London to York. He doesn't

he's not supposed to, right? It's like don't go to York when the king is there. Like you'll never make it. And in her prophecy, I like don't know the specific wording, but she says he will see York, but he will never make it there. So, he's on his journey there. He's a top a hill, some 8 miles away from York. So, he's on the hill and he can see York. And he is like mocking the witch. He's like, "I am one day away from York." And haha, you stupid witch. Like, you're wrong. Your prophecy is wrong.

That's why she's so popular. I like the fact that she's got all these guys talking about her.

Right. Right. [laughter] So then as he's like saying this, I imagine he's saying it out loud because he's that type of guy.

So he's for sure bragging to all of the guys in his

100%. But as he's doing this, he is beckoned back to London because I don't know, I didn't look into like the real

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history of it, but apparently he had done something that lost his favor with the king. And the king was like, "Fuck that guy. Hate him." He was sent from where he was back to London. So he had to literally turn around, never reached York. He was arrested for treason and died.

Holy [ __ ] Also, I'm just picturing like obviously he had to be told that he was summoned back.

Mhm.

So I'm just picturing the job of the people who have to like

dash through the woods and then force him back,

right?

Cuz you know he wants to travel those last eight miles to prove her wrong,

right?

Mother Shipton was correct. Cardinal Wley would never reach York. So now people are like, "Oh, this woman knows the future." And she made many other accurate predictions. So we're going to talk about some of them and we're also going to talk about the validity of some of them afterwards.

There are two documents that lay out the predictions or primary documents. The first is a pamphlet that was originally published in 1641.

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And the second is a text that was published in 1881, many, many years after Mother Shippen lived and died, which there are some issues with that one specifically, but we'll get there. You can also read both of these. It's dense because it's written in Oldtimey English.

Okay. But let's talk about the prophecies documented in the 1641 pamphlet first. She wrote in one prophecy before that bridge and Trinity Church meet they shall build on the day and it shall fall in the night. So there's a bridge called House Bridge in York that had collapsed several times by the 1500s. And so this prophecy was said to reflect the way humans build and also destroy. It's like when nightfalls humans just destroy everything that they build. I think the like prophecy continued to say that until the like stone of the church is used to build the bridge. It will never stay sturdy. Which I think is also commentary on how the church was this like pious like pompous we are better than all. And she was

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trying to say like you have to touch earth, touch grass kind of thing.

Go touch grass.

Go touch gr like the 1500 version of go touch grass. [laughter] And sure enough, despite continuously rebuilding the bridge, it kept falling. even killing multiple people in 1565.

They did try to rebuild with not the Trinity Church stone but like stone from a fallen church and it didn't work.

But I wonder if they had used the stone from Trinity Church as she said, would it have stayed up? I don't know. Okay,

north vs. south

so now another prophecy stated the following. The north shall ru it wonders soar, but the south shall ru it forever more. So people believe that this prophecy was actually about the English civil war which took place many years after mother shipman's death from 1642 to 1651. So it basically is saying that the north and the south will both have so much tragedy but by the end of it the south will rule and have power forever.

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And so this prophecy now has been analyzed so many times because it has become true time and time again in this way of like history repeats itself. Also, I'm like, how was this woman not given a castle and just like put on this pedestal and be like, "Yes, everyone go and like have your fortune told,

right?

Why is she still living in the cave?"

No.

In the Civil War, the North did suffer many losses. Entire towns were burned and the South lost its king. King Charles I was executed in 1649 and then Cromwell rose and the South persisted. So, like the crown, London, the South continued to rule. Mhm.

And this echoes throughout history. The Civil War was first, then the industrial revolution, and then Brexit, saying like history continues to repeat itself, which even if you want to say like, okay, anyone could say that like history repeats itself.

She's smart enough to put that into words. And she's a woman who grew up in a cave,

right? She's living in a cave. She's been exiled like a million times now.

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people aren't offering up information or being kind to her ever.

Right? Okay. So, now here's another one. And I'm also just reading like the major ones. There are so many more in the pamphlet and in the other text, but this

woman with one eye

one's called the woman with one eye. So, listen to this quote cuz it's like the most gruesome but also like powerful image.

Then shall come a woman with one eye, and she shall tread in many men's blood to the knee. So, a oneeyed woman waiting through the blood of men up to her knee. Just picture that.

Yeah,

it's powerful.

It is very powerful. So, this is believed to be about Queen Elizabeth I who's the daughter of Ambulin. So she's born and raised in a life of bloodshed originally initially, but then when she takes the throne in 1585, it's a reign marked by many periods of bloodshed, particularly persecution of Catholics and political threats, some of which were women, like Mary, Queen of Scots, but a lot of them were men.

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And Queen Elizabeth I was said to have one eye that was like very poor vision, so she kind of only had one eye. But it also could just be about women in general that you should fear them, fear the power and the retribution that they will take and have the power to take.

Yeah.

Well, and just like the will to survive and how many I I guess like atrocities perpetrated by men do happen to women

every day.

Every single day.

Every day.

And by the time a woman gets to the end of her life, she does have she is waiting up to her waist with like the terrors inflicted

by men.

By men. Yeah. Sorry to our male listeners. [laughter]

But men, just do better.

Tell your friends.

Everyone, just do better. That's not, you know, I think humankind is terrible.

Humans are terrible.

I would like to be a cat.

Um, okay.

But some, I will say, some animals in the animal kingdom are also like very vicious. And

I would love to be a chunky house cat. I'd like to be Leia. [laughter]

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Yeah, Leia has a sick life. It's like where do we go to just have like peace and beauty? I mean even think about trees.

Even trees are brutally murdered.

Well, but also it's like they can live so peacefully amongst one another and like if one of the trees is not doing well, they can like help it help it. But on the flip side, if there's a tree that's being too selfish and is taking too much, they will kill that tree. They will restrict all the shared nutrients

and just exile their fellow tree and be like, "No, you're too greedy. Be gone."

So, are we just trees? Are we just doomed?

Pick and choose who they want to live and die.

I don't like thinking about that. [laughter]

Okay. Well, more things to think about. There are more prophecies that were documented, like I said, in the 1881 text, and that's called Mother Shipton investigated. The most famous of all Mother Shipton prophecies is as follows. When carriages without horses run, when men shall fly as birds have flown, when

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ships shall swim beneath the sea, then half the world deep drenched in blood shall be. Let's break that down. When carriages without horses run cars, when men shall fly as birds have flown, planes. When ships shall swim beneath the sea, submarines, then half the world deep drenched in blood shall be cars, planes, submarines.

War.

Death. War.

World War I.

Yeah. Literally like death. But keep in mind, mother Shipton lived 1488 to like mid 1500s.

Way before any of this was even a thought.

Centuries.

Yeah. This prophecy cemented Mother Shipton as the female Nostradamus of England and this line appeared all over the world. It was like quoted in newspapers and I think it was in almanac until like kind of recently.

Really?

Yeah. It's funny because when Marissa was visiting a month or two ago, she

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made a comment about how I have the farmer's almanac and like kind of made fun of me for having it and I was like, "No, this is like my Bible." Like I truly reference it for like weather and making plants and [laughter] doing stuff like that.

Well, do you remember?

When can I plan this one event that I think is going to be outside? Let me look at where the stars and the weather patterns and what's happening there.

Yeah, that's your witchy Bible.

I guess I'm a I'm a farmer witch.

You're [laughter] a green witch.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess it keeps going back to that.

Do you remember how in middle school internet is kind of a thing at this time, but we're not we don't have as much access to computers. So you would you have to go do research? You go grab an almanac.

Yeah.

And you look things up and then you grab other texts that are in the library.

We had library classes, remember, where the librarians would teach us and like test us on how to

I love the dewy decimal system so much. [laughter]

Like that might be my kink. Dewey decimal system.

Dewey decimal system.

Like if you have a at home library and it's arranged by the dewy decimal system, call me. [laughter] Let me get a look at it.

Send.

Okay. So similarly another prophecy

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again written in the 1881 text was about the evolution of humankind and technology and it went like this. Around the world thoughts shall fly in the twinkling of an eye. How could she know that thoughts would travel that quickly? The internet mail like post like whatever all that stuff. How did she know it was going to happen like that?

prediction of the apocalypse

You know,

she made many other prophecies, but perhaps her most ominous prophecy and the very first doomsday prophecy to go viral, she wrote

for the Simpsons.

She basically is a Simpson,

right? [laughter]

She wrote, "The world to an end shall come in 1881." So, people are panicking as it's getting closer to 1881. It's like, "Is the world going to end?" I know. I'm trying to think of what happened in 1881. I'm like, okay. Well, the 1810, 1812, there was wars here. Well,

1881, we were moving Eduwardian into Victorian era. Is that right?

But so, like basically, and we'll get to

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this in a second, but like newspapers are really ramping up the fear-mongering with this. They're like this witch back from the 15th century claimed that the world will end. Like, the countdown clock is coming. when like what what does a world ending mean?

It's kind of like the death of self. Like it doesn't mean you actually die. It's just there's a new version and new opportunities coming. But when 1881 arrived, the world did not end. And uh there are a lot of questions to be asked about said prophecies because keep in mind, mother shipton lived in the 1500s.

Yeah.

Most of these were in 1881. Did anything happen that was

significant? That's what I'm saying.

fact or folklore?

It's important to ask how valid are these given that they were written so long afterwards. The 1641 pamphlet, it did exist and it's housed in the British Library and it's printed by Richard Loun and it's believed to be accurate. It was published more than 70 years after

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Mother Shipton's death, meaning that everything that was in there is secondhand told over generations.

But a lot of those were already public knowledge before they were documented and published in this book. But the 1881 text is messy. Charles Henley,

so it's probably not authentically from her.

Yes.

Got it.

So Charles Henley, who republished her prophecies in 1862 through 1881, admitted to taking creative liberties.

Okay. Well, that pisses me off because that basically is just like him disrespecting her prophecies, being like, "Well, I don't really believe that anyone can just make stuff up." then or he just wanted to ride on her fame, which is men doing that to women again. Like being like, I'm going to take this powerful woman's story and just like kind of take make a mockery of it and make it my own success,

right?

Like I'm not successful in my own right, so I'm going to just like use this other woman.

In ways it feels semi-hypocritical given that we are a podcast that only talks about other people and their stories,

but we're [laughter] not we're not making mockery or we're not trying to

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make our own names.

We're not attaching ourselves and

like we're telling multiple different stories.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we try to stay as truthful as possible. This guy took so many creative liberties that when you read his iterations of her history, like I kind of read the one from up beginning, like how she was born.

That's him dramatizing. He's turning a true story into a fictitious story because

he thinks it will sell better.

Yeah.

Whereas he could have just written a fictional story about a witch born in a cave and had fun with it and done all these creative liberties and it could have been inspired by Mother Shipton, but he's like, "No, this is the truth of Mother Shipton." Right.

But he was like, "Yeah, I took some creative liberties. Uh, well, the rest of it's true." And it's like, "Well, okay. Well, which part? I need you to like indicate line by line what's true and what's

he did say he absolutely took creative liberties when it came to the 1881 prophecy."

Okay.

It's like end of days. That being said, Mother Shipton was in fact a healer, a good, a powerful witch who indeed did predict many things of the future

46:00

accurately. Mother Shipton is and was an incredible woman who walked so we could run. And I believe that wholeheartedly.

hauntings & the petrified well

She spent the later years of her life in solitude. She withdrew from the world, watching from the edge of the forest. And when she felt her end was near, she returned to the place where it all began, the cave by the river Nid, her birthplace. Some even say that her body still lays like in the cave. But I don't think that's true. And we don't know specifically when Ursula Shippen or Mother Shippen died, but it was somewhere around 1560. Although I will say, what a turn of events if her body is in fact in the cave and it's perfectly preserved because then she would basically be deemed a saint by the Catholic Church. You know what? It would be perfectly preserved because this cave turns things to stone.

Yes, limestone. Many people claim to see Ursula's spirit and they've even heard laughter echoing in the cave. Staff that work at Mother

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Shipton's Park say that sometimes right before a storm, the cave will grow colder even though the air air outside is warm. Like she's almost she is the storm. You know, she was born in the storm. She is the storm. Phones will glitch. Recordings distort. Dripping from the cave will slow as if time is pausing. Whether it's Mother Shipton's ghost or just the strange magnetism of this place, no one really knows. But we do know for sure that Mother Shipton made such an impact on society that the cave has turned into a tourist attraction and is actually England's oldest tourist attraction.

I love this.

Yeah. So, right next to the cave,

I guess yeah, 1400s,

right? And it like kind of became like a pilgrimage spot for people to go. So, right next to the cave, there's this small ancient waterfall. And for centuries, people believed it was cursed. Cursed by Mother Shipton because anything that is left beneath its dripping edge, a flower, a doll, a shoe, turns to stone. That is so wild. This

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kind of feels like in a way like the old Grim's brother fairy tales. It absolutely does. You can see there are Here, I'll show you a picture. I mean, there are tons and tons of calcified

that are hanging just outside the ledge of this cave. And for a very long time, people were like, "This is Mother Shipton's magic or she put a curse on this." And you know, whoever dare go into her cave while she's not there will turn into stone.

How perfect that this is located right near her cave because I love that like even when things might naturally be occurring, it still is associated with her and her power.

She's so powerful.

She's so powerful.

But the truth is, yes, it is science. It's chemistry. So there are minerals from the limestone cliffs above mostly calcium carbonate that as they drip coat them with mineral layers and over time they harden into stone. But

they this happens in like most caves but it does happen a lot faster here

which I think is just like the geology

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of this specific place

mother shifted.

Yeah.

Yeah. So since the 1630s this has been a tourist site. It has been a place of pilgrimage for centuries. Visitors started out in the 1630s paying one penny to go visit the witch's well. It is the oldest, like I said, England's oldest continuously operating tourist attraction. Even royalty would come to visit. Everyone wanted to see the cave where a witch was born and where the earth itself seemed to breathe magic. And you can still visit today. You can wander the woodlands, touch grass, [laughter] touch the ancient stone, and hang your own token beneath the petrifying waters. But I think the most important lesson and thing to end this story on is that Mother Shipton is a survivor. Her story is far more than prophecy or witchcraft. It really is about survival. A woman who was cast out for being different, who managed to survive and became larger than life. She outlived many, outlasted wars and fires. And even death could not

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silence her. Damn. Powerful. That is the story of Mother Shipton, a witch who walked before us.

Yeah. I love her. I love her so much. This also made me think about the woman who I think she was from Spain who was living in a cave as like an experiment. She was supposed to spend like 500 days or something like that in a cave.

And when they came to get her at the 500 day mark, she thought it had only been like a couple months and she was like, "Wait, what?"

Which is crazy.

Yeah. Like I'm not done with my books yet, though. [laughter]

I was watching Tangled with Noam.

I love Tangled.

It was really good. No in such a princess phase, but

that is so cute. I was watching it with her and there's that one song where she like talks about what she does every day and how she like reads her three books and then if she has time in the afternoon she reads those same books over and over and I was just thinking about this woman who spent 500 days in the cave like I would go crazy.

Oh, I would too.

I couldn't do it.

I don't think I am mentally strong enough to do that either.

I do love Cozy Earth as having like the bedrotting challenge.

Okay. The bedrotting challenge I could

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absolutely do.

I could do so easily.

You can get up and pee,

right? I think I could spend weeks in bed.

Yeah. So, how long is the bedrotting challenge?

I don't know. I think it's like whoever loses or whoever outlasts everyone else.

Mhm. [clears throat]

I'll put us in, coach. We'll win.

Can we bed rot? Cozy. Tap

invite us.

Tap us in

or just give us more sheets. [laughter]

Okay. I have a story and this is from

listener story

Cindy. It's called Witch Sister.

Love it.

Hello. I'd like to say I've been a fan of Whitney for years. I feel like she's a witch sister.

She's so sweet and funny and adorable. The episode you were in made me want to share a story.

She also adopted one of my foster babies, Monroe, who she is now named Sabbath. And one of the nicknames

Wait, I didn't realize that.

Yeah.

After the she got in Salem the first time she came up to visit.

One of the nicknames she's calling him

52:00

is Sabie. And I was like,

like you

like his mother? His OG mother.

Oh my gosh. Actually, wait. So, this is a I only just blood.

Let me announce [laughter] I'm not pregnant.

However, because Brian and I have started talking about like our family planning and because we had so much trouble picking a name last time, I bought a book that came up as like recommended on TikTok 100,000 baby names cuz last time we did 10,000 and we came up with more one.

So, we need more.

Isn't it app where you can both like swipe on names?

Yep. Did that. Went through it. No mattress.

Wild.

We're struggling.

Sabrina, tell Brian to like Sabrina.

Listen to me. [laughter]

So, Cindy, fan of Whitney now. Maybe a fan of us. I'm not sure. Maybe.

Okay. I'm 50 years old now, but when I was little, maybe like four, my mom had taken my sister, my brother, and I on a trip. And we ended up in Salem, Massachusetts.

We did the normal sightseeing things, but I felt like I was at home. A man

53:00

asked if he could paint my picture down by the water. Wait, sorry. I'm just picturing him be like, "Come with me down by the water so I get to take your take your [laughter] picture."

I think it was less creepy. They were down by the water. It seems like he was painting a landscape and he asked if he could paint her, too.

Okay.

Cindy writes, "My mom let him and I have no clue who he was or whatever happened to that picture, but it felt like he was an old soul and somehow like he and I were connected."

Wow.

Which is wild. Like she's feeling this when she's four.

Yeah. That's very very

And it stuck with her. For many years into my teens, I would have the same dream of being burned for being a witch. And then I would wake up with actual burn marks on my body. I had a small mole on my temple and it would swell and bleed. My dad had a doctor remove the mole when I was around 14 or 15. And to this day, I have dreams that it will swell and bleed even though the mole is now gone. My fingers will have little blisters as well as my chest. I've always been drawn to go back to Salem as

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an adult, and maybe someday I will. My dad told me that he does think I am an old soul. I've seen and talked and felt spirits in my life. Some good, some very evil. And there are times there are so many of them all talking at once that I can't take it. And I have to shut off my brain. And I have

That's wild.

Yeah. And I have to shut off my brain or it feels like there's going to be electrical shocks throughout my brain. It can be a blessing and it can be a curse. Our gifts are not always under control.

I can remember pieces of several lives, but being burned as a witch is the life that comes forward most often. Enjoy your gifts. I just wanted to share my witch story with you. Wish you all the best on your journeys. Sincerely, Cindy. Wow. Well, I'm so interested because I love that Cindy's drawn to Salem.

Mhm. And like kindred spirits there, too. clearly, but as we know that like Salem, none of the witches or accused witches were burned. They were all hanged or oppressed or, you know,

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[clears throat] no one was burned. But it almost feels like Cindy was burned as a accused witch in another place

that all of those souls probably have such empathy and like love for one another that they're drawn to, you know, like they they know they can feel that energy and are shared. Yeah.

So, I'd be curious if Cindy went to, you know, there's so many places in Europe where innocent people were accused and

drownings and witchcraft

if she would feel the same way.

Right.

Yeah. It is interesting cuz even just like her mole like there's blisters, there's swelling, there's bleeding, and it's like it does seem all like it burns and like the result of fire. Yeah.

But at the same time, it also makes me wonder if that's just kind of like the manifestation of something horrible happening.

It's like this is how like this is the idea that you think of when you think of witches and this is the clearest way that like

I can show you that this is your past,

right?

56:00

I'm also so curious. Where's that picture that this man drew?

I know. Probably in an antique shop in Salem. We should go find it.

Yeah.

Or Cindy should go back and see if

Oh my drawn into a place and finds it. I always think about and this story was so wild. This girl had this like little chachki. We read it on our podcast and I cannot remember what episode but she had this little chachki and they lost it but she met a guy who was from overseas and when they went to go visit his family I want to say it was like in Iceland. That same chachki was in the family house and it was they had found it in the water.

I think it was like an invisible string theory. It was an invisible string theory story, but I was like, how

crazy like chills

like where is that now? And like is it going to come back to you in your life from someone else?

Anyway, love magic. Love witches. Love you all witches. Love Mother Shipton. Love you witches with capital B.

Um, except for the men who have done us wrong who are [ __ ] [laughter] Just

57:00

be just [ __ ]

Just anyone. Anyone who's wronged us in the past,

be warned of Krin when she's a ghost because she will.

Guys, once upon a time, you should have been scared. Now I can't remember anything. Did you say something mean to me? I don't know. I don't remember. Did you when you survival mode? You're still You're like [laughter] day by day, minute by minute.

Actually, my doctor's appointment, I had to give them the dates of when I was pregnant. And I was like, I truly don't know. They were like, "How old how old were you?" I was like, "Can you please first tell me how old I am right now and then I can do the math backwards?" I truly didn't know we were there for like 5 minutes where I was like trying to figure it out. Let me

Well, that is also very hard cuz it's like when someone asks you also like when you what do you had for breakfast?

Yeah. I don't know.

I just think about

I can't remember those 10 months.

All I know All I know is that our tour was in 2023. So that's my

Was I 30? I think I was 30 when I was pregnant. I'm 32 now, right? That's

You must have just turned 30.

Okay. That's what I eventually said. I was like, I turned 30.

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That's what Brian told you. Brian told you you're 32.

He told me I'm 32. We are 32.

We are 32.

Yeah.

Then my mom said that I was in my mid-30s. I was like, no, I'm not. [laughter] Like, okay. Like, what? I'm going to call you. You're in your late 60s. She's turning 60. [laughter]

That's just [ __ ]

Fighting words, Aurora.

Anyway, we love you all.

That's not very princess behavior, Aurora.

No. No, it's not. [laughter] Don't anger the witch over here. But we love you all. Thank you so much for being here. If you have any witchy stories, if you've visited the cave in York, it's actually I So I'm going to York. I'll be there when this or I'll have just been there when this episode comes out.

Are you going to go to this cave?

So it's a 45minute drive.

Oh, how many days are you doing in York?

Not that many. So it just depends what I get done there and if I have time.

Yeah.

But it will be close and I'll be in the town York, which is where the story takes place. So, if you've been, please email us. If you have any stories in general about the paranormal or odd or supernatural or crypted, whatever it is,

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email it to us at two girls one ghost podcast atgmail.com. Join us on Patreon where we have a new tier and we're doing some witchy classes over there. We have book club, extra encounters. We had our first witch class and I can't stop thinking about the magic the magic of it. And also just like the phrase walking the path of the witch like that just so stuck out with me. So if you want to walk the path of the witch with us, head over to

us over there. Thank you to our editor and producer Jamie Ryan and thank you to our producer Emma Leventter. You keep us sane

and so do all of you. Well, actually maybe the opposite.

Insane. But sometimes insanity.

We need balance.

Yeah, of course. So, we love you and we will

see you on the other side.

Very spooky.